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saber1
Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2009 4:15:28 PM
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greentime wrote:

saber1 wrote:
Bunch of nonsense that didn't answer my rhetorical question



Please keep your quotes accurate. I like neither being misquoted nor having a quote misattributed to me.
saber1
Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2009 4:30:00 PM
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greentime wrote:

What have been the best things to happen to al Qaida since its formation? Their attacks on September 11th and our invasion of Iraq. Those attacks occured during Bush's administration.


Insinuating that 9/11 was the fault of President Bush is a tenuous position not supported by the following facts: the plan was conceived years in advance, planned years in advance, funded years in advance and those that carried out the attack(s) had been in the United States for some time. Then the attack happened a mere 8 months after President Bush was sworn in. I'd say this was all but entirely during President Clinton's watch.


greentime wrote:

It also put thousands of Americans straight into these jihadi's crosshairs, where they still are.


Yet since 9/11 there have been zero terrorist attacks on American soil. Credit is due President Bush. The thousands of Americans in the "crosshairs" as you put it are the men and women of our Armed Forces. They are trained and equipped for the very purpose of going into harm's way so that American civilians do not have to. These couragous men and women volunteer to join their service branch of choice knowing that there may be a bullet/rpg/mortar/missile with their name on it. This is a service to our country, in defense of our country. I whole-heartedly support them and admire them for their courage, duty and sacrifice. Focusing the enemy half a world away keeps the enemy half a world away which means you and I are that much safer stateside before our keyboards.
Mandalore Da Beast
Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2009 6:39:13 PM
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Joined: 7/6/2009
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Location: Desintegrating some Djem So Sucka!
there have been zero attacks on american soil..
thats because we decided to finally tighten up airport security.
Im not pro Clinton By any means, but to drop the September 11th Mock up in his lap is almost irresponsible.
Bush was debriefed 2 weeks before the attacks. he was warned that it would happen. him and his cabinet were so far up Iraqs arse (figuring out how to invade at the time), that he totally brushed it off.
Yea, some bad things happened to americans when Clinton was in office, but they happened over seas. in their territory. people are so surprised that we have lost so many troops in Iraq (which i support what they do hole heartedly), but i am not. I feel bad for those kids who have all this smoke blown up their "you know whats", telling them that they are "defending their county", "liberating another country" at the same time. these poor barves only really want to finish or go to college, and to have a decent future. BUT, they have to lay their lives on the line, take a gamble, and hope the D20 rolls in their favor. we dont belong over there, and the Iraqis know that. if the Iraqis were over here, doing to us what we have done to them, we would be killing them in droves.
60% of Iraqis would rather have Saddam back in office, then to face what they are facing right now. thats a large percentage of people that would rather deal with a Tyrant. pretty dang sad if you ask me.
Bushs upgraded security is called the "Patriot Act", and its a mockery of our constitution. any of you who feel safer at night when you go to bed can thank the FAA, its because of them we dont have Boeings 747s flying into our homes. (wouldnt want to screw the pooch on that one again!!)
North Korea is a threat. they are a threat to their own people. Vietnam was a bad enough loss, the last thing we need is to go back for more, and have some Nukes for Dessert. If we pick and poke at them by telling them what is write and what is wrong, then theyll start to get antsy. we dont want antsy North Koreans now do we? I say leave em be.
we need to mind our own blasted business and worry about what going on with our own people. our economic status can also sit in Bushs lap, and that Serpent Dick Cheney can sit in his wheel chair next to Bush and stroke it for him. The war in Iraq screwed us big time, 2 million spent average a day.
We can find Saddam in a Cubby hole, but we cant find a half dead guy cave hopping, with a dialasis machine in tow? Gimme a break.

defender390
Posted: Monday, August 24, 2009 1:47:57 PM
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Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 396
I am going to be busy in these next few weeks, so this will probably be my last post.

Eroschilles wrote:
The rounds found were not WMDs, they were not large enough to be classified as such. They were probably rounds that should not have been in possession of Iraq, but not all chemical rounds are WMDs. That's using the term too loosely.


A weapon of mass destruction is a weapon that can kill large numbers of humans and/or cause great damage to man-made structures, natural structures, or the biosphere in general. In the United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, all chemical weapons were classified as WMDs regardless of size. We know for abslute sure that Iraq had VX nerve toxin, so I will use that as an example. If you do not believe me, read this. Iraq originally only admitted to researching it and failing to produce it, and no evidence of it was found after the Gulf War. After the 2003 invasion, however, investigations have indicated that Iraq not only weaponized VX, but dropped three VX bombs on Iran. They most likely purchased much of it. VX does not degrade or wash away, so it is still potent. It is also outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993. The lethal dose for a human is 10 miligrams for skin contact and 30-50 miligrams for inhalation. A single warhead could kill up to one mllion people. The actual casualties are likely to be much less considering weather, distribution, and the type of target. But we must remember the important lesson Hajaba taught us. Chemical weapons are not to be taken lightly, no matter how benign they may appear.

Quote:
My source is the BBC. I'll google the particular articles later if I care that hard. Or you could do it if you are so inclined. The reason the U.S. bombed the Kurds in Turkey was because they were crossing the border into Northern Iraq and attacking U.S. troops. The reason Turkey got upset was because the U.S. violated Turkish soveriegnty.


The only reference I found was that of Turkey condemning us over bombings in northern Iraq that they deemed as indescriminate. Everything else was referring to the Turkish bombings of Kurdish rebels in Iraq and Turkey. I cannot find the article you read.

Quote:
Dismissing the Koreans usage of WMDs is a mistake. Not that their weapons are capable of striking the U.S., they still pose a very valid threat to our allies in East Asia. Pakistan has ended many terroist ties with its government, but the government itself is still a military dictatorship.


The Koreans are waving around their nuclear weapons because they want appeasement. Most of the danger from them does not necessarily come from them. The risk right now is that they may start an arms race or sell the technology. Unfortunately, there is not much to commit to war over right now. The most I think we should do at this point is keep up the sanctions and use military strikes against their weapons facilities. Just because Pakistan is a military dictatorship, it does not mean we should invade them. They have been cooperative for right now. Maybe down the line war will be necessary, but not now. Iraq was honestly the more dangerous country.

Quote:
MSNBC is left-leaning yes, but it still isn't propaganda. That's mislabeling of terms and misleading. They were left-leaning during Pres. Bush's term. You don't become a propaganda machine automatically when the party you support wins the presidency, you just support alot of their policies.


Definition of propaganda: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

NBC is owned by GE. GE happens to be a huge lobbyist for the Obama administration and is getting lucrative government contracts as a result. Their biased coverage helps the Obama administration and by extension their own contracts. That makes it propaganda. The others do not really fit the mold because they have nothing to gain.

Quote:
I'm telling you, waterboarding causes physical pain and discomfort during the procedure. It is used as means to coerce information. By definition, that is torture. Trying to reason it away means you codone torture. Torture does not have lasting physical or psychological effects. The information gathered from waterboarding was very limited, or individuals from Bush's administration would have come up with copies of the memos themselves.


Discomfort, yes. Not pain. Initially, waterboarding causes apnea which makes people hold their breath and causes severe panic. After 2-3 minutes, it causes extreme pain, lung damage, and brain damage from water entering the lungs and lack of oxygen. The detainees were never held long enough to actually get to the painful part, just the panic and fear. If they were prolonged sessions, I would agree with you, but they were not. Actually, according to the Justice Department, waterboarding was instrumental in stopping a terrorist attack in Los Angeles. The Bush administration always kept national security issues under wraps regardless of whether it was advantageous to them. I would not expect them to release anything.

Quote:
You may agree with DiLorenzio, but most economists agree that laissez-faire policies is bad for a recession and devastating for a depression. Recently, everyone agreed (including Pres. Bush) that something needed to be done to improve the economy that was plummetting last fall, but they disagreed as to what that something was. Laissez-faire is not a good idea.


Economists are actually evenly divided on the cause and treatment of a recession. The only thing they agree on is that the lack of consumer confidence must be remedied. President Bush supporting government intervention means nothing to me. It just shows that he is a RINO. I err on the side of believing government involvement inhibits economic growth. Look at the 1981-1982 recession. In order to combat the recession, Reagan instituted tax cuts, deregulation, reductions in the rate of government spending, and a stable, carefully managed growth of the money supply. After that, Reagan was confident that the economy would restore itself after it was free. He was right. The market corrected itself and we had the longest peacetime economic expansion in history, plowing straight through the 1987 recession.
saber1
Posted: Monday, August 24, 2009 4:07:42 PM
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Joined: 2/14/2009
Posts: 1,450
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That's good stuff, defender. I greatly appreciate the citations.
Eroschilles
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:54:48 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2008
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UNSCR 687 bans the Iraqi possession of all chemical weapons with a range greater than 150 km. As i recall, all chemical rounds found had a third of that range at most. Most of the rounds were in the form of short range artillery shells as I recall.

Here's a quote from the page you cited:

"ISG has not found evidence that Saddam Husayn possessed WMD stocks in 2003, but the available evidence from its investigation—including detainee interviews and document exploitation—leaves open the possibility that some weapons existed in Iraq although not of a militarily significant capability. Several senior officers asserted that if Saddam had WMD available when the 2003 war began, he would have used them to avoid being overrun by Coalition forces.

‘Amir Hamudi Hasan Al Sa’adi told an emissary from the RG leadership, on 27 January 2003, that if Saddam had WMD, he would use it, according to a former officer with direct knowledge of Iraqi military ground operations and planning.

According to a former senior RG official, Iraq had dismantled or destroyed all of its WMD assets and manufacturing facilities. Had Saddam possessed WMD assets, he would have used them to counter the Coalition invasion.

If he had CW, Saddam would have used it against Coalition Forces to save the Regime, according to a former senior official.

Iraqi military planning did not incorporate the use—or even the threat of use—of WMD after 1991, according to ‘Ali Hasan Al Majid. WMD was never part of the military plan crafted to defeat the 2003 Coalition invasion."

Again, not saying Saddam was not a ver bad man, he was, but war was unnecessary. At the time of the invasion, all evidence suggests Iraq possesed no WMDs. Keep in mind that the Chemical Weapons Convention is an independent group from the UN and anything it outlaws is not legally binding for anyone, including those who sign the convention. No, chemical weapons are very serious and all should be banned across the board, in any form.

I cannot seem to find the article to which I'm refering either, but my point was that Kurds are very militant for their indepence and have attacked other people besides those of Saddam's regime. I'm not implying that the Kurds deserved to be attacked and killed with chemical weaponry, but Saddam wasn't the only person who has killed Kurds in response to their militant actions.

So, by your definition of propaganda, Fox News was a propaganda machine during Bush's tenure. Especially since Scott McClellan (White House Press secretary 2003-2006) stated that the Bush administration gave talking points to Fox news commentators. Whether or not that is true, the point remains valid that Fox is biased towards to the right and especially so to the Bush administration. The other news stations have something gain to they bolster their own political position and agenda. Material gain is not the only gain one can obtain.

Nope, waterboard still hurts right off the bat. But its not that it causes pain or discomfort that makes it torture. It is torture because the reason it is implememnted is to gain information. Torture focuses on using coercion to gain information. I don't know what other verb you would use for that situation beside torture. "They tortured him using waterboarding to find out where the weapons were." I think any humanatarian group would consider waterboarding torture.

Reagan didn't use laissez-faire policies. He may have tried to use minimal government influence, but he did institute governmental control of the economy to recover from the recession. Laissez-faire is still bad for a recession and depression.
defender390
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:16:44 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 396
Caught a break, so here you go:

Eroschilles wrote:
UNSCR 687 bans the Iraqi possession of all chemical weapons with a range greater than 150 km. As i recall, all chemical rounds found had a third of that range at most. Most of the rounds were in the form of short range artillery shells as I recall.

Here's a quote from the page you cited:

"ISG has not found evidence that Saddam Husayn possessed WMD stocks in 2003, but the available evidence from its investigation—including detainee interviews and document exploitation—leaves open the possibility that some weapons existed in Iraq although not of a militarily significant capability. Several senior officers asserted that if Saddam had WMD available when the 2003 war began, he would have used them to avoid being overrun by Coalition forces.

‘Amir Hamudi Hasan Al Sa’adi told an emissary from the RG leadership, on 27 January 2003, that if Saddam had WMD, he would use it, according to a former officer with direct knowledge of Iraqi military ground operations and planning.

According to a former senior RG official, Iraq had dismantled or destroyed all of its WMD assets and manufacturing facilities. Had Saddam possessed WMD assets, he would have used them to counter the Coalition invasion.

If he had CW, Saddam would have used it against Coalition Forces to save the Regime, according to a former senior official.

Iraqi military planning did not incorporate the use—or even the threat of use—of WMD after 1991, according to ‘Ali Hasan Al Majid. WMD was never part of the military plan crafted to defeat the 2003 Coalition invasion."

Again, not saying Saddam was not a ver bad man, he was, but war was unnecessary. At the time of the invasion, all evidence suggests Iraq possesed no WMDs. Keep in mind that the Chemical Weapons Convention is an independent group from the UN and anything it outlaws is not legally binding for anyone, including those who sign the convention. No, chemical weapons are very serious and all should be banned across the board, in any form.


The warhead and the platform are two very different things. Here is what UNSCR 187 says:

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:
(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;
(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities
...
14. Takes note that the actions to be taken by Iraq in paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of the present resolution represent steps towards the goal of establishing in the Middle East a zone free from weapons of mass destruction and all missiles for their delivery and the objective of a global ban on chemical weapons

All chemical weapons and components were prohibited and classified as WMDs. We know they had weapons of mass destruction and that they still have them. As of 2009, they are one of the member countries of the Chemical Weapons Convention that has declared stockpiles. Iraq claims to have "two bunkers with filled and unfilled chemical weapons munitions, some precursors, as well as five former chemical weapons production facilities." That is proof of a stockpile. War was necessary, Iraq violated the UN conditions. We know they had weapons of mass destruction and failed to destroy them.

Quote:
I cannot seem to find the article to which I'm refering either, but my point was that Kurds are very militant for their indepence and have attacked other people besides those of Saddam's regime. I'm not implying that the Kurds deserved to be attacked and killed with chemical weaponry, but Saddam wasn't the only person who has killed Kurds in response to their militant actions.


Saddam specifically targetted civilians, not combatants. The Al-Anafal attacks resulted in the deaths of 100,000 Kurds and the destruction of 2,000 villages. The Kurdish civilians that were captured were sent to concentration camps and executed. Not comparable.

Quote:
So, by your definition of propaganda, Fox News was a propaganda machine during Bush's tenure. Especially since Scott McClellan (White House Press secretary 2003-2006) stated that the Bush administration gave talking points to Fox news commentators. Whether or not that is true, the point remains valid that Fox is biased towards to the right and especially so to the Bush administration. The other news stations have something gain to they bolster their own political position and agenda. Material gain is not the only gain one can obtain.


Nope. FNC is center-right at the most. They were and are still critical of Bush, although compared to other news outlets it may not appear that way. FNC has been balanced in its coverage, for the most part. True, material gain is not the only kind of gain, but for other stations you have to go case by case by newsperson. NBC and MSNBC are the only ones that have a parent company that stands to benefit from biased coverage. With the others, it only really benefits those that are individually furthering their agendas rather than the entire company. For that reason, I cannot call them propaganda.

Quote:
Nope, waterboard still hurts right off the bat. But its not that it causes pain or discomfort that makes it torture. It is torture because the reason it is implememnted is to gain information. Torture focuses on using coercion to gain information. I don't know what other verb you would use for that situation beside torture. "They tortured him using waterboarding to find out where the weapons were." I think any humanatarian group would consider waterboarding torture.


Nope, there is no pain until the water enters the lungs or asphyxiation starts. Doctors are present to make sure that it does not go that far. The sessions did not go further than forty seconds, well within the average person's ability to hold their breath. If torture is so simplistically defined as something implemented to get information through coercion, explain these to me. Is a cop trying to get a confession out of a suspect by telling them that there is a witness that can place them at the scene of the crime torture? Is a cop befriending a suspect to get information torture? Is a cop threatening a suspect with a harsher sentence torture? Is a subpeona torture? I would use the term "interrogation" for those coercion methods and "court order" for a subpeona.

Quote:
Reagan didn't use laissez-faire policies. He may have tried to use minimal government influence, but he did institute governmental control of the economy to recover from the recession. Laissez-faire is still bad for a recession and depression.


I used the term loosely, my mistake. I am just referring to the efficiency of limited government involvement in the economy. A comparison between the eighties and the thirties just shows that the government produces problems in the economy, not solutions.
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