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V-set highs and lows - your thoughts? Options
Sashlon
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 4:42:16 PM
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So, we've had 2 full sets and the BOTP micro set. Excluding the Epics (since they're not legal), what have been your highlights? Dissapointments? Favourite new ability/force power?

What are your top 10 pieces and why?

My favourite 10 pieces:

1 Bastila Shan, Jedi Master - She has almost single-handedly made the OR fun and tough.
2 Exar Kun, Ghost - he has given the Sith so many new options and he works with so many different figs.
3 Yammosk, War Coordinator - Lets the Vong compete, and adds a new dynamic of stealing CEs. I love it.
4 Atton "Jaq" Rand - I love that he is completely different in Sith compared to OR. A very strong piece.
5 Admiral Pellaeon - Another completely new concept, and I enjoyed having another Force Bubble fig.
6 Darth Revan, Sith Lord - Finally, the Revan we were expecting ;)
7 Klatoonian Captain - This guy helps so many factions and creates new squad ideas.
8 Salacious Crumb - This guy is the ultimate reinforcement. So annoying under the right circumstances.
9 Jedi Seer - I just love the design of this piece.
10 Celeste Morne - I love her design. I don't think she's a world beater, but she is so much fun.

My favourite new abilites/force powers have been: Jedi Reflexes and all of the Force Abilities.

My biggest dissapointments have been the new Dooku (not terrible at all, just not what I was looking for) and the NR R2/3PO fig.

How about you?
Azman
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:02:01 PM
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Fav piece.... Yammosk... I love playing Vong

My next game i will be playing Bastila for the first time. (I thimk she looks great.) with atton in the squad.
Echo24
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 3:46:34 AM
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Highs from the v-sets: Bastila, Revan, and Yammosk are good pieces, and needed for their factions. My personal favorites, though, include Darth Zannah, Klatooinian Captain, and Atton Rand. Exar Ghost is a really great one, too.

Lows include Anakin/Padme on Reek (should have had something similar to Strafe Attack to let it attack while it moves, basically running over enemies), Poggle the Lesser (more 2-point pieces is really not what the game needs, especially ones that blow up and are incredibly annoying), Cilghal (Force Renewal would have made for a much better piece, and I'd love there to be more competitive Healing pieces), and the non-unique NR characters from R&R (not good enough for me to even think about playing them over the NR's oh-so-good Uniques)
wannabe mexican
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:27:47 AM
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I love the Yammosk. Vong stealing swap is nasty. I also love the Firebreather. One of my favourite games I have played was one where I was swapping my nombombs everywhere and then flamethrowing them.

I also love Atton Jaq Rand. Had a lot of fun testing him, and I love that he gives the OR and Sith a shooter without relying on fringe.

Bastilla is incredible. I don't use her much. I rarely play OR. But I like what she does to me. I like that I have to try to think up squads that aren't CE reliant. I thought I cracked it once, but still managed to lose. I have trouble with her, but she is teaching me to up my game.

Atris is actually really growing on me. I have been trying her and Handmaidens lately and love it.

Salacious Crumb is also great. Provided I am playing Distraction correctly, then he is so useful as a reinforcement like Sashlon said.


My biggest disappointments are the A Series Assassin Droid. The one that came out is different from the one I tested. But that is a problem on my part as I didn't ask for updated stats, and didn't report the stats we were using so as to get an update. I loved the version we tested, but what we have is a bit disapointing. I'm still gonna try and use him though. Very much useful with the Tactician Droid.

I'm not a huge fan of Tycho Celchu either. I love him in the books.

All in all, I can't wait for the next set and the micro set.

Also, I got my cards a week ago or so, and haven't mentioned how pleased I am with them. They are stunning.
markedman247
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:11:33 AM
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Up: The Yammosk. Stealing CEs is a fun one. Favorite CE to steal? The Parting Shot. It fits the Vong so much.

Down: Bastilla. I have a huge list of things I find wrong with her but, in the effort to keep this civil, I will just say that she really isn't fun to play against. This is my opinion.

Torn: Darth Zannah. She's fun and she's darn tough. However, I just feel that her lacking Sith Sorcery just doesn't do her justice.

Can't wait to play: Celeste Morne. Just for my fan-boyness.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:14:04 AM
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my highs are similar to those above: bastilla, revan, the Yommask, Klatoonian captain, atton, and exar ghost. But jaster, kal skirata and THe new republic commandos are great. and they were great to playtest.

Dissapointments: cilghal, for me she should have had renewal, and maybe something like essence of life to represent how she kept people like mon mothma alive when they were close to death. and Mandalore the Preserver, his commander effect is cool, but i just didnt like his stats all that much, although i will say rout was cool.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 12:05:45 PM
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markedman247 wrote:

Down: Bastilla. I have a huge list of things I find wrong with her but, in the effort to keep this civil, I will just say that she really isn't fun to play against. This is my opinion.


She's both an up and a down for me.

She's a great boost for the OR. She's a great twist on the game to make it so you have to build a squad that isn't 100% CE dependent. I like what she did to the meta.

But she takes it too far. You don't generally need to cancel CEs in round 1 (unless it's versus like a Lancer on an open map). If you out-activate the enemy and don't absolutely have to activate something else first, you can make her ABM last 2 rounds. (From the first activation of round 2 to the last activation of round 3.) By the beginning of round 4, you have enough FPs to do it again. By the beginning of round 6, you have enough FPs to do it a 3rd time. 7 rounds is probably the game, so effectively no CEs for the whole game unless you can out-activate or win initiative and then get just a few activations with boosts. I don't like how she gives auto-losses to so many different squads.

With a little numbers-tweaking, ABM could have been made to be active for half to 2/3 of the time instead of all the time. I think that would have had a similar (beneficial) effect on the meta without giving a large number of squads 100% auto-losses versus Bastila.

For example, Force 4 for ABM would have made it so that she can cancel CEs in rounds 2/3, but then wouldn't be able to activate it again until round 5 for rounds 5/6. That would give a window of round 4 where the tides would turn. But it is what it is, and I'd rather have her as is than not have her at all.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 12:17:08 PM
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Other highs: Jaq, Revan Sith Lord, Lord Kaan.

Lows: Not a specific piece. Just not enough synergy with the WotC pieces. There is some, but I'd like to see literally half of the new Vset pieces be tied to bringing an old piece back to life. Play new piece X with old piece Y as a competitive combo. That sort of thing. Or even "new piece X is nerfed by old piece Y, which makes old piece Y a reinforcements option."
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 12:52:15 PM
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Some thoughts:

Negatives:
I like Bastila a lot, and I think she's good for the game, but that in retrospect it might have been better to price her a little bit higher

I'm not thrilled by Poggle bombs - in our local meta, it's almost necessary to use disruptive or Bastila in tournaments in case you come up against our resident drone fan (he has 30 of them). I don't like the save of 16, nor do I like the fact that they're only 2 points; I would have preferred if those two features had been removed and they were just straight bombs. They're unlikely to dominate overall metas, since they have weaknesses, but they are pretty annoying.

Positives:
I do really like how a couple of the minor tournaments since the set was released have been won by new pieces that people haven't been paying attention to. While people have been complaining about Celeste Morne and the new Windu, pieces like Bardan Jusik, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Padawan, and Winter have been winning. I think sometimes, people don't realise is that a 65 point piece has to be very, very powerful to even have a chance of overcoming a bunch of good 20-30 point pieces working together:
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109694/dont-stap-believin--dragon-con-winner-
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/108267/promote-synergy--like-a-boss-

I really like where Sith are going; I think most of the Sith pieces are really good, it's great how they've got defensive powers now, and that neat trio of 36 point pieces (Kaan, Traya, Jaq Rand) gives them lots of potential builds, while Revan, Exar Kun, and Bandon in the first set were all great too.
gwek
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 2:09:32 PM
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Highs: I love that the minor factions have been elevated. Although the Old Rep seems like the big winner so far, the Vong and Sith aren't far behind, and the Mandos have made great strides. This is the set balance I wish WotC had put in place.

As a fan of the Old Rep and Sith, if I had to picke a single favorite piece, it's probably Atton Rand. Great shooter for two factions. I had a ton of fun playing him haunted by Exar Kun.


Lows: I agree with flyingarrow that a little more synergy with the older pieces would be nice. Particularly for the lesser factions, it's pretty easy to play with JUST the V-Set pieces (okay, and maybe a few Mouse Droids...). It's not a terrible thing, though, and really not much different than the WotC dynamic (where it seems like most pieces were obsolete within two years). It may just seem a little more obvious because of the pre/post-WotC thing.

I don't know that I can say there are any particular pieces I dislike. All in all, pretty good stuff.
CC-23478
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:20:06 AM
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Cabs: the new revan is a lot of fun, I love it when my brother mobs him with jedi to kill him only to have him be switched with an ugnaught. The phase 2 destroyer is awesome, the droideka not so much.....

Lows: the only clone we've got is a 5 point grunt.....where are my commander Bly? Commander Neyo (give him something to make me wanna use the saleucami troops again) and the tactical droid was a disappointment......I was expected something more ..... Commanding
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:58:51 AM
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CC-23478 wrote:
Cabs: the new revan is a lot of fun, I love it when my brother mobs him with jedi to kill him only to have him be switched with an ugnaught. The phase 2 destroyer is awesome, the droideka not so much.....


How do you switch Revan with an Ugnaught? I think it's illegal: "At the end of this character's turn, he may exchange positions with another ally of the SAME base size within 6 squares."
CC-23478
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:04:51 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
CC-23478 wrote:
Cabs: the new revan is a lot of fun, I love it when my brother mobs him with jedi to kill him only to have him be switched with an ugnaught. The phase 2 destroyer is awesome, the droideka not so much.....


How do you switch Revan with an Ugnaught? I think it's illegal: "At the end of this character's turn, he may exchange positions with another ally of the SAME base size within 6 squares."


Ah, you caught my bluff.....I switch him with the sith guard, because he's the cheapest sith piece, but in order to try to beef up the revanchist I said ugnaught haha.....I rarely use uggies because I play themed battles
Boris
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:34:00 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Other highs: Jaq, Revan Sith Lord, Lord Kaan.

Lows: Not a specific piece. Just not enough synergy with the WotC pieces. There is some, but I'd like to see literally half of the new Vset pieces be tied to bringing an old piece back to life. Play new piece X with old piece Y as a competitive combo. That sort of thing. Or even "new piece X is nerfed by old piece Y, which makes old piece Y a reinforcements option."


To everyone: I appreciate the feedback, as always. BigGrin

I quoted this portion because this is a goal of mine and has been from the start. The fact that 2.5 sets in someone still is asking for it makes me think that either I have failed at my effort and need to work harder on it, or the poster has missed the subtle interactions we tried to interweave into combining the v-set design with WotC's. For one thing, Grand Admiral Thrawn is THE Bastila counter. She cannot ABM him. Pellaeon is his back-up play, for 2 reasons. 1, you get a second Force Bubble to widen the field. I have won several games against her just running ol' Pelly down the map with the troops. 2, if your opponent doesn't have Bastila, you can dump GAT for new Thrawn and go to Opportunist Town.

That's just one example. There are tons more. Jacen and Jaina are Lancer hate (not to mention what Jaina can do in an "I must base you to win" environment. Winter is the precursor to what the Royal Handmaidens will be when I am done with Amidala. A character portrayed by Natalie Portman deserves far better than Rob has done by her, and if I have my way, she will be a scary combatant (not Boba scary but a great commander who motivates the troops and utilizes her bodyguards effectively). I may not get my way right off, but hang in there - I'm a patient guy. Wink

Lastly, I will say that I agree that we have been about as hit and miss as WotC has. I wish I had done more with Padme and Ani on Reek (which btw isn't really a movie character, it was just the only way we could realistically do the Picador wagon and still be close to accurate - I figured I could skirt by on the abstraction of it, and most people have been accepting of our limitations). It doesn't mean I won't try again. I'm really looking forward to v-set 4!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:04:18 PM
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Boris wrote:

I quoted this portion because this is a goal of mine and has been from the start. The fact that 2.5 sets in someone still is asking for it makes me think that either I have failed at my effort and need to work harder on it, or the poster has missed the subtle interactions we tried to interweave into combining the v-set design with WotC's. For one thing, Grand Admiral Thrawn is THE Bastila counter. She cannot ABM him. Pellaeon is his back-up play, for 2 reasons. 1, you get a second Force Bubble to widen the field. I have won several games against her just running ol' Pelly down the map with the troops. 2, if your opponent doesn't have Bastila, you can dump GAT for new Thrawn and go to Opportunist Town.

That's just one example. There are tons more. Jacen and Jaina are Lancer hate (not to mention what Jaina can do in an "I must base you to win" environment. Winter is the precursor to what the Royal Handmaidens will be when I am done with Amidala. A character portrayed by Natalie Portman deserves far better than Rob has done by her, and if I have my way, she will be a scary combatant (not Boba scary but a great commander who motivates the troops and utilizes her bodyguards effectively). I may not get my way right off, but hang in there - I'm a patient guy. Wink

Lastly, I will say that I agree that we have been about as hit and miss as WotC has. I wish I had done more with Padme and Ani on Reek (which btw isn't really a movie character, it was just the only way we could realistically do the Picador wagon and still be close to accurate - I figured I could skirt by on the abstraction of it, and most people have been accepting of our limitations). It doesn't mean I won't try again. I'm really looking forward to v-set 4!


I hadn't realized the GAT interaction - love it. Winter raises Leia, which I like. Pilots and Commandos (both Rebel and Republic) have been given lots of new tricks. Poggle bombs bring back Geonosians. I like that. Rom Mohc helps dark toopers. General Weir helps the Storm Commando. Savages and Huges (mounted weapon) got huge boosts, which is great. Defels have a new trick. Peace Brigade Thugs got a boost. There's a lot of boosting old characters. I just want more.

That's all great, but just as often (or more) I see WotC pieces being pushed to the background by the Vset pieces. For example, while WotC pilots get some tricks, will they see much more play? They don't live up to the Chadra-Fan, the Red Squadron Ace, Jaq, etc. For Revan, Jacen, Jaina, Ki-Adi-Mundi, even Darth Maul... the new versions largely help obsolete WotC versions (even further). (New Vader is a notable exception, which brings troopers new life.)

I know some have complained that the Vsets have had too much power creep (leap?). I disagree. The new pieces are by and large appropriately costed - it's just that for the most part they are appropriately costed for competitive play, while most WotC pieces are not. Instead of getting 40 new pieces, only 5-10 of which are useful competitively like we got with WotC, we get 60 new pieces, 30-50 of which are useful competitively. That's a GOOD thing, except that some WotC pieces that were marginal are now becoming not-even-marginal. It's hard to write a boost for a bad piece that doesn't also boost good pieces - so the bad piece is still bad.

I'm in favor of extreme rapport. Look at an old piece and ask, "What should this have really cost?" Then give it rapport to that point cost. Throw the rapport on to a Vset piece for free (i.e. don't count it in the Vset piece's cost). For example, the Twi'lek Scoundrel should probably be cost 5. You could throw a rapport -2 on some new piece specifically for the Scoundrel.
Sashlon
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:42:46 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

I'm in favor of extreme rapport. Look at an old piece and ask, "What should this have really cost?" Then give it rapport to that point cost. Throw the rapport on to a Vset piece for free (i.e. don't count it in the Vset piece's cost). For example, the Twi'lek Scoundrel should probably be cost 5. You could throw a rapport -2 on some new piece specifically for the Scoundrel.


I like this idea. I'd like to see Rapport used a bit more creatively.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:44:31 PM
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Sashlon wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

I'm in favor of extreme rapport. Look at an old piece and ask, "What should this have really cost?" Then give it rapport to that point cost. Throw the rapport on to a Vset piece for free (i.e. don't count it in the Vset piece's cost). For example, the Twi'lek Scoundrel should probably be cost 5. You could throw a rapport -2 on some new piece specifically for the Scoundrel.


I like this idea. I'd like to see Rapport used a bit more creatively.


Admittedly, there is the downside of more complicated arithmetic for squad building.
wannabe mexican
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 7:58:00 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sashlon wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

I'm in favor of extreme rapport. Look at an old piece and ask, "What should this have really cost?" Then give it rapport to that point cost. Throw the rapport on to a Vset piece for free (i.e. don't count it in the Vset piece's cost). For example, the Twi'lek Scoundrel should probably be cost 5. You could throw a rapport -2 on some new piece specifically for the Scoundrel.


I like this idea. I'd like to see Rapport used a bit more creatively.


Admittedly, there is the downside of more complicated arithmetic for squad building.


I don't think that would be too much of an issue. Sashlon and I are working on a Booster Terrik, and the idea I had was that he be fringe, but has a rapport that he costs 5 less if used in a NR squad. We could perhaps see something like that too.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 2:16:39 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
That's all great, but just as often (or more) I see WotC pieces being pushed to the background by the Vset pieces. For example, while WotC pilots get some tricks, will they see much more play? They don't live up to the Chadra-Fan, the Red Squadron Ace, Jaq, etc.


WotC made 19 pilots total, many of them can certainly see more play. Dash still is and probably always will be good. Some of the melee pilots like Lumiya and Saesee Tiin get MUCH better with the Klatooinian Captain (either of them + KC + TBSV is a pretty solid start to a squad). Anakin Skywalker on STAP is significantly better with Speed 8 and evade. Wedge Red Two is quite a good pair with Dutch, since that makes him a pretty survivable piece with Grenades 30 for just 13 points. No, not ALL pilots got something (all the commanders that aren't Rebel or NR like Krayt, Vader LotF, and Odd Ball got left out), but there certainly are WotC pieces that are now playable that absolutely weren't before (I never ever would have used the words "Wedge Red Two" and "good" in the same sentence before, unless maybe I also said "isn't").

Some of the old ones, like Carth Onasi or Biggs Darklighter, are so incredibly bad or overcosted that there isn't any saving them, but there are definitely WotC-made pilots that are playable now but weren't before. The trick is finding them.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:55:50 AM
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Echo24 wrote:

Some of the old ones, like Carth Onasi or Biggs Darklighter, are so incredibly bad or overcosted that there isn't any saving them, but there are definitely WotC-made pilots that are playable now but weren't before. The trick is finding them.


You're right - there are a lot of WotC pilots that were boosted. I guess I had the non-uniques in mind, which are still bad.

I understand the sentiment that bad/overcosted pieces can't be saved. I just think that extreme rapport or very targeted CEs/SAs can save any piece.

For example, on a new Luke, Farmboy...

Rapport (Character named Biggs Darklighter costs 9 less when in the same squad as this character)

Wow - I never really looked that close at Biggs. He is horrendously overcosted. 17 looks about right. Without the new available Pilot boosts, he could have had even stronger Rapport.

Anyway, instead of Rapport, extreme synergy could also be used. Again, on a new Luke, Farmboy...

Blast it, Biggs (A character in your squad named Biggs Darklighter gains Cunning Attack +20 and Defense +6.)

(For Biggs, that still might not be enough, but you get the idea.)
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