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TimmerB123 wrote:I take my share of the blame, for sure. I apologize, Timmer, it was not my intent to cast blame, nor was it even constructive to emphasize it. I'm glad to know the potential was brought up, even if it made it through. On a more constructive note, do you guys think altering Pong's Reserves' numbers would help? It would make it more likely to get Reserves on any given roll, but it would weaken him somewhat - he's already designed to get the shoot for the perfect roll anyways, off-setting him from Kazdan would make Anticipation/Sense the Future less powerful but also less needed.
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jen'ari wrote:I feel it is very self serving to keep pushing this agenda at this premature time Wow! Sounds like the old guard saying "this piece is not broken, let it play out and you'll see". I hated hearing that phrase but it usually proved true. But, if I understand, a counter is already in the works.
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jen'ari wrote:Look, I have trouble listening to people discussing changing tactics that they use on the regular.
Not going to lie, it's hard to believe that you care as much about changing act control as you do reserves.
Considering 2/3 of the time you are using high act squad with act control.
Which is fine. But act control has held a dynasty on regional first place and second place and for gencon.
It is the most powerful squad type.
And it is lame to face it... Almost every single time.
Now the people wanting reserves gone so fast were playing act control and got beat.
I think it is amazing. To have a squad that can hold it's own (at least when played by a top tier player) with the out act tactic is perfect.
It should not go anywhere until act control goes somewhere.
We should face the old problems first and do something about them first.
These new complaints from mainly two people should not hold precedent over the years of complaints from stalwart pieces of the game and community.
To continue to keep pressing for reserves change before it has proven to be an issue is to put yourself, your play style, an your priorities over the large part of the community that wants to check and balance out activation squads.
Fix the old problems and put them into account before trying to change an unproven problem that just so happens to counter your own playstyle (high activations).
I feel it is very self serving to keep pushing this agenda at this premature time Dude you can be so thick. I've argued and attempted to weaken the bs I play more than anyone. Here's a list of crap I begged, bitched and helped to change. 1. 10 point Gambit, hurts swarms. 2. 3-2-1 scoring, discourages not playing for full wins. 3. Naboo Death shots. 4. Yalismari. 5. Mouse Droid Change, Diminutive aka "Tiny". 6. No more 2 point pieces, hurts out act and smash. 7. NCO and CDO 8. I constantly push counters to strafe for factions without any. 9. I constantly push counters to swarms for factions that don't have any. 10. I want act control changed to line of sight to an enemy I play out act and smash because it is what I know best, but I wasn't playing act control when I got beat, but nice try. When I play daala I try my hardest to win without act control. The only games I brought in ozzel were against thrawn swap, so when it was absolutely necessary. I know you want there to be some corruption and dirty motives behind wanting to have reserves nerfed, but there isn't. My goal is only to better the game, even more than I already have.
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atmsalad wrote:jen'ari wrote:Look, I have trouble listening to people discussing changing tactics that they use on the regular.
Not going to lie, it's hard to believe that you care as much about changing act control as you do reserves.
Considering 2/3 of the time you are using high act squad with act control.
Which is fine. But act control has held a dynasty on regional first place and second place and for gencon.
It is the most powerful squad type.
And it is lame to face it... Almost every single time.
Now the people wanting reserves gone so fast were playing act control and got beat.
I think it is amazing. To have a squad that can hold it's own (at least when played by a top tier player) with the out act tactic is perfect.
It should not go anywhere until act control goes somewhere.
We should face the old problems first and do something about them first.
These new complaints from mainly two people should not hold precedent over the years of complaints from stalwart pieces of the game and community.
To continue to keep pressing for reserves change before it has proven to be an issue is to put yourself, your play style, an your priorities over the large part of the community that wants to check and balance out activation squads.
Fix the old problems and put them into account before trying to change an unproven problem that just so happens to counter your own playstyle (high activations).
I feel it is very self serving to keep pushing this agenda at this premature time Dude you can be so thick. I've argued and attempted to weaken the bs I play more than anyone. Here's a list of crap I begged, bitched and helped to change. 1. 10 point Gambit, hurts swarms. 2. 3-2-1 scoring, discourages not playing for full wins. 3. Naboo Death shots. 4. Yalismari. 5. Mouse Droid Change, Diminutive aka "Tiny". 6. No more 2 point pieces, hurts out act and smash. 7. NCO and CDO 8. I constantly push counters to strafe for factions without any. 9. I constantly push counters to swarms for factions that don't have any. 10. I want act control changed to line of sight to an enemy I play out act and smash because it is what I know best, but I wasn't playing act control when I got beat, but nice try. When I play daala I try my hardest to win without act control. The only games I brought in ozzel were against thrawn swap, so when it was absolutely necessary. I know you want there to be some corruption and dirty motives behind wanting to have reserves nerfed, but there isn't. My goal is only to better the game, even more than I already have. I can vouch that he fought for all these things. And Etienne is CERTAINLY not "the old guard".
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TimmerB123 wrote: And Etienne is CERTAINLY not "the old guard". Huh?  That is my quote and not about Etienne.
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juice man wrote:TimmerB123 wrote: And Etienne is CERTAINLY not "the old guard". Huh? That is my quote and not about Etienne. I know it was your quote, but others seem to be implying that about Etienne.
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I appreciate your hard work....
In everything that the "old guard" has been saying for years.
Tbh a large part of me looks at all the changes that have been made and at the Game in general and am pretty happy with it.
Now ewe have a possible counter to act activate and I am very happy about that because it is something that hasn't been helped in a decade.
Now after one tournament we are looking at fixes for it. I am all for helping problems in the Game but I am also for not changing things until it is a proven npe or broken.
Neither of which have been proven yet.
It is premature.
It just so happens that the circumstances are very suspect. The two people that are throwing shade at reserves were playing out activate and got beat...
Those two people happen to be good friends and have an agenda. To change reserves.
These two people are "elites" in the swm community. This is how things go.
They don't like it so a change happens? It is asinine and self serving.
There is already a soft counter coming out.
In all accounts the only thing we have to go off of is this regional. Since it activate didn't work people are in a frenzy. That's all I am seeing.
Imo for the growth of the games sake it is time for it activate to be matched and even have some matches that it sucks against so that it is balanced and not making it to every finals in every competitive tournament
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Deaths_Baine wrote:http://www.bloomilk.com/Character/1651/han-solo--captain-of-the-millennium-falcon
This guy is a good counter correct? Yes. This guy will probably beat Jason's Reserves squad. But no guarantee. Even without any init tricks, Pong/Kazdan have a 25% chance to hit Reserves each round.
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TimmerB123 wrote:One major issue with the latest reserves squad is not that it won, or not even that there were major complaints. It's that it highlighted a loophole that was never intended.
The math was supposed to be around 25% chance. It says it repeatedly in the design thread for Pong Krell.
This squad gets up to a 74% chance.
Looking at the intent and the actual math result is a giant disparity.
That is the issue. Pong gets 20% just by virtue of having 4 Reserves numbers. Add Anticipation and Sense the Future (which are both on his card) and it's 36% chance of hitting Reserves in round 1. Then 48% chance of hitting Reserves, starting in round 2. That's just Pong by himself. Add in CLObot with a 5th Reserves number and Recon and it goes up to 76% (although Recon does require line of sight). The problem with this squad is not that it's a luck-based squad. The problem is that it's *not* a luck-based squad. Looking at how Jason beat Tim - Jason got lucky to get Lobot twice in a row. I don't have a problem with that. People get lucky in all kinds of ways in this game. Jason got lucky and it just happened to be in a way that's Tim's NPE - that's the way it goes sometimes. Luck happens. But looking at how Jason beat Etienne... Jason loaded up tons of Reserves by *not* getting lucky. It's just normal for him to get that many reserves. That's a problem. Whether it's a problem big enough that it needs to be addressed - not sure. Probably not since Unkar is on the way. It certainly looks like a gatekeeper for this season. There are a number of ways to counter Pong, but if he's the gatekeeper he knocks several factions (not just squads) completely out of contention. (Incidentally - just checked the design thread. The 25% that is repeated is talking about the 25% chance of having clones re-spawn.)
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It's still a shocking and embarrassing oversight on our part. The intent was certainly never to make it so someone is PROBABLE to get reserves.
I always thought the MTB would prevent it from being tier one. I never thought about the fact that the very same piece would MAKE it tier one.
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Are you sure it was an oversight? It's 48% with Pong by himself.
At any rate - here's the meta for GenCon if Reserves are expected...
NTMTO + MTB. Autoloss for Pong.
Han, CotMF. Probable loss for Pong.
San Hill, Nute Gunray, or Prefect Da'Gara. Get your own Reserves every round to keep up with Pong.
MTB + Deep strike. A strafer, or Embo, or something else that can get tot he MTB by the end of round 2. This is what Tim had and it would've worked.
Strong deep strike/accurate shot. If you can't get to the MTB, bring enough firepower to quickly take down Pong and/or Kazdan. Still need a lot of speed, but you might not have to fly over anyone if you have accurate or are fast enough and can do 120 dmg in a turn.
Area effects. All the Reserves come in adjacent. Might be able to blast them at the outset.
Of course, the way the GenCon meta has gone the past couple of years... the perceived strongest squad isn't played at all. Half the field counters it. And you're better off if you counter the counters. So look above and plan to beat those squads. Meanwhile, Tim and Jason are countering your counters to those squads, and one of them will win it.
"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."
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FlyingArrow wrote: Then 48% chance of hitting Reserves, starting in round 2. That's just Pong by himself.
This is only true if you don't have to anticipate on rd 1.
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FlyingArrow wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:One major issue with the latest reserves squad is not that it won, or not even that there were major complaints. It's that it highlighted a loophole that was never intended.
The math was supposed to be around 25% chance. It says it repeatedly in the design thread for Pong Krell.
This squad gets up to a 74% chance.
Looking at the intent and the actual math result is a giant disparity.
That is the issue. Pong gets 20% just by virtue of having 4 Reserves numbers. Add Anticipation and Sense the Future (which are both on his card) and it's 36% chance of hitting Reserves in round 1. Then 48% chance of hitting Reserves, starting in round 2. That's just Pong by himself. Add in CLObot with a 5th Reserves number and Recon and it goes up to 76% (although Recon does require line of sight). The problem with this squad is not that it's a luck-based squad. The problem is that it's *not* a luck-based squad. (Incidentally - just checked the design thread. The 25% that is repeated is talking about the 25% chance of having clones re-spawn.) To be honest... I don't think ANY Out act and smash squad will put Unkar Plutt in their squad, lol. I'm not sure what he costs, but as long as its not under 20, then I think its pretty safe to say he won't be there. daala can't afford to run a 20+ fringe character to counter reserves. MAYBE Fringe only squads... But that would only be if Reserves outside of him go crazy. I still think the squad can be taken care of pretty easy. But its only speculation. I obviously haven't ever played it, so this isn't a first hand thing. But I ran squads like this, optimizing Reserves, and its 6 in one, half a dozen in the other. I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll.
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urbanjedi wrote:FlyingArrow wrote: Then 48% chance of hitting Reserves, starting in round 2. That's just Pong by himself.
This is only true if you don't have to anticipate on rd 1. Good catch.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:http://www.bloomilk.com/Character/1651/han-solo--captain-of-the-millennium-falcon
This guy is a good counter correct? Yes. This guy will probably beat Jason's Reserves squad. But no guarantee. Even without any init tricks, Pong/Kazdan have a 25% chance to hit Reserves each round. it shouldn't be a guarantee anyways.
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shmi15 wrote: I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll. The Pong Math (assuming Clobot for the 5th number for reserves) Rd 1 -- 25% normal roll, 43.75% with anticipation (rd 1 since you shouldn't be able to see anyone with clobot etc). Rd 2 -- 25% normal, 43.75% with anticipation, up to 58% if you saved the force point and can use Sense the Future. Unlikely to get recon in rd 2 since rd 1 was probably mostly positioning. So until rd 3 or later its basically 43.75% chance each round. Later rounds are basically the same until you add recon (which can boost it up to whatever 73% or whatever) but Clobot is really fragile and if they have anyone with accurate, he is basically dead.
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jen'ari wrote:It just so happens that the circumstances are very suspect. The two people that are throwing shade at reserves were playing out activate and got beat... Tim has always hated "luck" in SWM's. He has also been beaten many times while playing tempo control. Etienne has stated his dislike of several things in SWM's, including tempo control, but it is an effective strategy and I'm pretty sure he has also lost several times while using it. jen'ari wrote:
Those two people happen to be good friends and have an agenda. To change reserves.
These two people are "elites" in the swm community. This is how things go.
Hard to go to tourneys and GenCon and not make friends. Yes they have an "agenda" - publicly stated. Etienne, you are now "elite" Whoo-Hoo. Congrats! jen'ari wrote:
They don't like it so a change happens?
A change has yet to happen. If Jason had used this squad at Frosty maybe a change would have happened by now. Casting doubt on what they're pointing out because they are friends and lost to this squad - while using tempo control - is silly. I still think time is needed to see if this is really a problem, but hey! I'm not one of the elites. (at least, I don't think I am)
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It seems the answer to the topic at hand is: The moment YOU* have an NPE playing against it. *YOU in this reference is any and every "you", not just the topic creatorA counter to reserves you say...
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jen'ari wrote: It just so happens that the circumstances are very suspect. The two people that are throwing shade at reserves were playing out activate and got beat...
Those two people happen to be good friends and have an agenda. To change reserves.
These two people are "elites" in the swm community. This is how things go. Speaking of class, this IMHO, is really a classless statement.  This coming from the guy that has been crying about Ozzel and out activating the opponent. This reserves squad that gets reserves more than 1 time in a single match, only adds to the problem, as the possibility of doubling and tripling your squad is preposterous!!!!! When a problem or something that is broken is discovered, it must be nipped in the bud, dude. THIS HAS NOW BECOME A PROBLEM! Ozzel, Dodonna, and San Hill have been around forever in SWM. These guys were Wizards minis, not V-Sets!!!!!!!!!!!!Come on man! I haven't heard this nonsense and complaining from anyone ever in SWM about tempo control..................................
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