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DarthMaim wrote:jen'ari wrote: It just so happens that the circumstances are very suspect. The two people that are throwing shade at reserves were playing out activate and got beat...
Those two people happen to be good friends and have an agenda. To change reserves.
These two people are "elites" in the swm community. This is how things go. Speaking of class, this IMHO, is really a classless statement.  This coming from the guy that has crying about Ozzel and out activating the opponent. This reserves squad that gets reserves more than 1 time in a single match, only adds to the problem, as the possibility of doubling and tripling your squad is preposterous!!!!! When a problem or something that is broken is discovered, it must be nipped in the bud, dude. THIS HAS NOW BECOME A PROBLEM! Ozzel, Dodonna, and San Hill have been around forever in SWM. These guys were Wizards minis, not V-Sets!!!!!!!!!!!!Come on man! I haven't heard this nonsense and complaining from anyone ever in SWM about tempo control.................................. I have heard people complain about tempo control for years. heck atm complained about it in this thread and wants it fixed. I think the bigger issue we (me and jenari) have is that a lot of people had problems with a lot of things and the answer kept being...we will wait and see....we will wait and see... ok, well it has won 4-4 of the first tournaments this year.. oh well...lets wait and see..... Heck Mace Windu dominated play not so much tournaments, although he did win gencon and is the most luck based single piece in the game in my opinion... oh your corran horn attacked me well, i'll riposte, force absorb, i'll force absorb your force absorb, role 2 crits and dead corran yay thanks for playing..... poggle bombs took forever.... blast bugs....was warned in playtesting it would suck...nothing done they actually kept making them better lol. I guess the problem is that it was always same its not an issue...well lets see how many tournaments it wins....ok it won everything...well..lets see....and then "coincidentally" you have 2 players that are friends lose to the top player running something that has been around since literally set 7 and bam we need to do something right now.. its just funny when it is a problem for them lets do it now when its a problem for the community... lets wait wait wait wait. That said: Hey I am all for the stuff being said by ATM- if he wants to make changes to all that other stuff hell yeah I am down for it as well i'll even test proposed changes before they hit the community to see what effects they will have on the game. I guess what I am saying is that the silence on the other issues for A LONG time is viewed as we don't care about those changes we care about the one we lost to... even if it is not reality and only the perception being portrayed it still sucks. new motto for the next set of balance committee members---- my cabinet will be more transparent then Obama's.
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urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote: I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll. The Pong Math (assuming Clobot for the 5th number for reserves) Rd 1 -- 25% normal roll, 43.75% with anticipation (rd 1 since you shouldn't be able to see anyone with clobot etc). Rd 2 -- 25% normal, 43.75% with anticipation, up to 58% if you saved the force point and can use Sense the Future. Unlikely to get recon in rd 2 since rd 1 was probably mostly positioning. So until rd 3 or later its basically 43.75% chance each round. Later rounds are basically the same until you add recon (which can boost it up to whatever 73% or whatever) but Clobot is really fragile and if they have anyone with accurate, he is basically dead. The real question is - why did we not spell this math out during his design? We really screwed up big
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TimmerB123 wrote:urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote: I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll. The Pong Math (assuming Clobot for the 5th number for reserves) Rd 1 -- 25% normal roll, 43.75% with anticipation (rd 1 since you shouldn't be able to see anyone with clobot etc). Rd 2 -- 25% normal, 43.75% with anticipation, up to 58% if you saved the force point and can use Sense the Future. Unlikely to get recon in rd 2 since rd 1 was probably mostly positioning. So until rd 3 or later its basically 43.75% chance each round. Later rounds are basically the same until you add recon (which can boost it up to whatever 73% or whatever) but Clobot is really fragile and if they have anyone with accurate, he is basically dead. The real question is - why did we not spell this math out during his design? We really screwed up big ehhh I would venture a guess that reserves has never been an issue and that other things in that set were viewed as more important or game changing. kind of like the problems we ran into in set 6 sooooo much good stuff some things slipped through that we had no idea would be so good.
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i wonder if you put it to a poll what would have more votes... reserves being an issue or out act and smash or outact and strafe, etc?
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Again, designer intent is key. Designers of this vset piece never intended this as a possibility. It was simply overlooked.
It took almost 4 years for someone to play them with an MTB at a regional. We never thought of that interaction, and had we, we would have never allowed it.
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shmi15 wrote:To be honest... I don't think ANY Out act and smash squad will put Unkar Plutt in their squad, lol. I'm not sure what he costs, but as long as its not under 20, then I think its pretty safe to say he won't be there. daala can't afford to run a 20+ fringe character to counter reserves. MAYBE Fringe only squads... But that would only be if Reserves outside of him go crazy. I still think the squad can be taken care of pretty easy. But its only speculation. I obviously haven't ever played it, so this isn't a first hand thing. But I ran squads like this, optimizing Reserves, and its 6 in one, half a dozen in the other. I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll. If it's below 20 then lobot all day! Lol 
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atmsalad wrote:shmi15 wrote:To be honest... I don't think ANY Out act and smash squad will put Unkar Plutt in their squad, lol. I'm not sure what he costs, but as long as its not under 20, then I think its pretty safe to say he won't be there. daala can't afford to run a 20+ fringe character to counter reserves. MAYBE Fringe only squads... But that would only be if Reserves outside of him go crazy. I still think the squad can be taken care of pretty easy. But its only speculation. I obviously haven't ever played it, so this isn't a first hand thing. But I ran squads like this, optimizing Reserves, and its 6 in one, half a dozen in the other. I do think 75% is a little much to hit reserves for a squad, but 25/30%. Oh well, let the dice roll. If it's below 20 then lobot all day! Lol Agreed, I hope not. Just another Lobot utility if so
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we just realized that "sense the future" doesn't help a reserve squad, with a MTB in it. the MTB changes the opponent's init to a 1, so if "sense the future" is use to swap inits, the reserve squad gets the 1. therefore I claim shenanigans!  Jason used it to steal my 11 turns out... it had no effect on our game didn't that one reserve, didn't change the other pile of clones & droids that surrounded and destroyed me 
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TimmerB123 wrote:Again, designer intent is key. Designers of this vset piece never intended this as a possibility. It was simply overlooked.
It took almost 4 years for someone to play them with an MTB at a regional. We never thought of that interaction, and had we, we would have never allowed it.
I keep hearing this thing thrown out called designer intent...designer intent.... I don't think you actually know what that means lol.... sorry I had to.... Seriously though, I fail to see how the odds could be missed, I see the MTB being missed, but the odds really.... I'd like to see the thread for this guy and see if A SINGLE person mentioned hey...these are the exact same numbers as this other guy doing 30 points of reserves as well...do you think 60 points is to much... because if not...designer intent be blasteded. it would be pathetic if it was passed without that at least being discussed by someone... I am going to go out on a limb and say that it wasn't brought up...a...single...time.....
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jak wrote:we just realized that "sense the future" doesn't help a reserve squad, with a MTB in it. the MTB changes the opponent's init to a 1, so if "sense the future" is use to swap inits, the reserve squad gets the 1. therefore I claim shenanigans! Jason used it to steal my 11 turns out... it had no effect on our game didn't that one reserve, didn't change the other pile of clones & droids that surrounded and destroyed me Wait.... Let me get this straight. If I have Jasons squad. After we roll the inits. My opponents roll becomes a 1, no matter what? So If I rolled a 10, he rolled an 11, I couldn't take the 11, because its actually a 1? So if I switched it... I would get the 1, and they would get the 10? 
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Darth_Jim wrote:No matter what you run, if it is competitive, someone will consider it an NPE. One of mine is high activation non unique swarms.
like the one you won GenCon with in "15, Grampa?  26 activation-cough-cough. f-ing ozzel cough-cough
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Tactics Broker (Once per round, before initiative is determined, choose 1 other character in your squad. Remove that character from play; that character is defeated. An opponent's initiative check result automatically becomes 1.)
Sense the Future (Force 2: Once per round, after initiative is determined, you may exchange your initiative check with your opponent's initiative check)
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jak wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:No matter what you run, if it is competitive, someone will consider it an NPE. One of mine is high activation non unique swarms.
like the one you won GenCon with in "15, Grampa? 26 activation-cough-cough. f-ing ozzel cough-cough WAIT!!! I had him on the ropes, or at least not happy, and he got reserves (4 Dignitaries). Kept pushing me back with them. BAN RESERVES, BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!!! No, wait, he got Clobot reserves twice at Frosty '16 and I still won. KEEP RESERVES, KEEP THEM ALL!!!!!!!!
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We are talking about is two different areas. What Jen'ari and Deathbane are pushing for is a change or Nerf to WotC pieces. What Tim and I are pushing for is a change or Nerf to V-SET pieces.
Up until this point the only direct change we have made to WotC pieces is in the mouse Droid. Other than that we have only changed rules governing WotC pieces. Making it so pieces can't be reduced to 2 points with rapport, changing yalismaris interaction and force immunity... And what not. Most of those changes is because WotC set a precedent by changing them, so we were green lighted.
So to ask what's a bigger problem is very obvious. Yes, out act and smash has been more dominant, but the real question should then be, is our community comfortable with changing WotC pieces. That I do not know...
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shmi15 wrote:jak wrote:we just realized that "sense the future" doesn't help a reserve squad, with a MTB in it. the MTB changes the opponent's init to a 1, so if "sense the future" is use to swap inits, the reserve squad gets the 1. therefore I claim shenanigans! Jason used it to steal my 11 turns out... it had no effect on our game didn't that one reserve, didn't change the other pile of clones & droids that surrounded and destroyed me Wait.... Let me get this straight. If I have Jasons squad. After we roll the inits. My opponents roll becomes a 1, no matter what? So If I rolled a 10, he rolled an 11, I couldn't take the 11, because its actually a 1? So if I switched it... I would get the 1, and they would get the 10? Incorrect. Tactics Broker happens AFTER sense the future would happen. Which is why Sense the Future doesn't counter tactics broker.
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may wanna double check that
MTB is BEFORE init
StF is AFTER
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atmsalad wrote:We are talking about is two different areas. What Jen'ari and Deathbane are pushing for is a change or Nerf to WotC pieces. What Tim and I are pushing for is a change or Nerf to V-SET pieces.
Up until this point the only direct change we have made to WotC pieces is in the mouse Droid. Other than that we have only changed rules governing WotC pieces. Making it so pieces can't be reduced to 2 points with rapport, changing yalismaris interaction and force immunity... And what not. Most of those changes is because WotC set a precedent by changing them, so we were green lighted.
So to ask what's a bigger problem is very obvious. Yes, out act and smash has been more dominant, but the real question should then be, is our community comfortable with changing WotC pieces. That I do not know... good question. we should be comfortable changing their crap...when its crap....
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jak wrote:may wanna double check that
MTB is BEFORE init
StF is AFTER for MTB you decide on who to sacrifice Before, but the Net result could still be considered after - An opponent's initiative check result automatically becomes 1. Notice how it does not say their roll is considered a 1 or anything to that affect - just that their final result is a 1. In other words MTB doesn't affect the roll like Sense the Future does it affects the end result regardless of other abilities.
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that may be the intent  but that's not how it reads
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jak wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:No matter what you run, if it is competitive, someone will consider it an NPE. One of mine is high activation non unique swarms.
like the one you won GenCon with in "15, Grampa? 26 activation-cough-cough. f-ing ozzel cough-cough That wasn't a swarm, it was just outactivate/smash Thrawn swap. I read the meta correctly after the New Zealand championship and played it. No regrets, but it's in my mirror now. It's just not as fun as low activation sheer aggression. The previous year I played a 9 activation squad and beat Tim's 28 act w/ Dodonna squad. Since the championship in 2015 I've been playing 8-10 act squads with no reinforcements and no tempo control and loving it. I think Jenari said it somewhere earlier in the thread that reserves squads offer a foil to outactivate/smash. (Not his exact words but I would agree that it does screw with them.) I would be reluctant to change reserves until we address outactivate/smash. As far as Unkar Plutt, if squads don't want to spend the points for him then face the reserves squads at your own risk.
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