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Official Balance Committee Changes - 2018 Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 12:28:51 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
And stapling NTMTO is a costly bandaid to try and salvage something but it's not a solution to the core of this issue which is personal feelings going against the majority of the community and affecting the competitive game when there is no actual reason or data to back up what was done on such a scale.


How is that different from how it was in the past? MTB stops Reserves entirely (unless 1 is your Reserves number), and the opponent can bring in an MTB engine through Lobot (MTB and 4 rounds of fodder). In the past, you needed NTMTO or something like it to stop an MTB if you wanted to run Reserves. Now you need it to stop either the MTB or Unkar. That's what I mean by being back to where we were. Unkar stops Reserves, but not as harshly as an MTB does. You can stop an opposing MTB with Never Tell Me the Odds, and that also stops Unkar.
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 1:12:50 PM
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It's true that NTMTO works agains both but MTB actually gives reserves to two of the factions and does not affect force powers while Unkar shuts down powers (that one still throws me off, thematically how can a c-list Junk dealer stop jedi from sensing the future or anticipation??) and affects all factions equally. Far worse than MTB.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 1:24:41 PM
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Your voices have been heard and are being considered.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 1:29:51 PM
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^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHA


can't help myself on that one. that is straight up hilarious coming from him.
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 1:41:26 PM
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The thing that makes this a no-brainer IMO is just looking at the impact on the community. If things stay as is, a large and active playgroup will be alienated. If Pong and Unkarr are banned, I have a hard time seeing anyone being upset. When the engaged community can easily be counted in dozens, it seems foolish to do things that will alienate players when there is an acceptable alternative. Jason’s Reserves squad was a problem, but outside of that, have people threatened to leave the game over Reserves?

The game really only exists while people are around playing it. Even if one were to grant that Reserves unbalances the game in some way, I’d rather see a game that’s less balanced with more players than one that’s more balanced with fewer players.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 1:44:07 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHA


can't help myself on that one. that is straight up hilarious coming from him.



its funny because it's like... oh now you are listening? what about the MONTHS going into this where all of these things were discussed and it was clear the majority of players had certain issues, but then bam LITERALLY NONE of the biggest issues discussed had anything done to them lol... c3po... no, daala... no, etc. Its hilarious that someone thinks they can say we are listening and its being discussed now lol.
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:04:46 PM
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Upon its formation the V-Set Design Group granted the Balance Committee emergency powers. Therefore, the power to; errata cards, recost cards, errata the glossary, create new floor rules, and even ban characters. It was stated clearly, “no tools are off the table for the Balance Committee.” This power was given in good faith that it wouldn’t be abused.

The charter of the Balance Committee is to identify and adjust unbalancing issues in organized tournament play. Therefore, anything overpowered, uncounterable (or very nearly so), frustrating, boring, or otherwise harmful to participation in the game.

To those ends there are several precepts in which the Balance Committee operates.
The balance committee should not redesign designers’ work for purposes of creating new content or for personal agenda. It should respect designers and include them in errata discussion when possible. It should not act impulsively or without careful deliberation. There must be a majority agreement 5/2 amongst the 7 members for any action to happen.

Over the year the balance committee has discussed Reserves, Pong Krell, and Unkar.
It was decided Reserves not stacking would address issues of imbalance with Reserves.
In the case of Unkar, we are still in conversation and deliberating. There are many factors to be considered, as evidenced by this thread. However, there is also a matter of proper etiquette and procedure to be considered.

Generally, a v-set is still in the hands of the designers for the tournament cycle following its release. The designers have the ability to issue errata during that time. While some designers have touched base with the Balance Committee prior to issuing errata, which was the case with Director Orsen Krennic and Eighth Cortex Shaper, it is not a requirement.

Unkar is a new character that has not yet impacted this tournament cycle. The designers had not yet been notified or invited into our discussion. It was not the right time for the Balance Committee to render a decision or make any announcement.

We are discussing this issue with the designers and are aware of the concern.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:14:30 PM
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DarkDracul wrote:

Unkar is a new character that has not yet impacted this tournament cycle. The designers had not yet been notified or invited into a discussion. It was not the right time for the Balance Committee to render a decision or make any announcement.



Thanks for what you said DD. I fully disagree with alot of the reasonings why it was not already changed and feel that this is just damage control. But it is still a step in the right direction. So I am happy. I mean, it is clear that unkar has to be changed or just banned. So lets just go ahead and do it and move on.

I am glad that the community is voicing out their opinions and getting stuff done. I am glad that even though it is ridiculously late that it is being discussed. This is not time for pride or whatever else is the issue from our leaders. Restore trust and lets move forward with the progress that has been made before this absurd blunder and step backwards.


But, I mean, c'mon the above is absurd. What power can two voices have about reserves that it gets a change instantly after one tournament (timb and frenchy) and Unkar gets months of discussion and nothing? I hate to pick at the wound but I mean if someone would just come out and say "yes, that is stupid" I swear it would help bridge the gap between the "powers" and the community. Like it or not, I am right on the issue.

anyway thanks for your post DD I just hope it is swift in coming
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:19:46 PM
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Agreed with Jen'ari here and thanks DD, it's appreciated to hear some reasoning and a better explanation and finally and most importantly, that something is being done and the voices of the community are being heard. So thank you for that. Still have to decide on what rules to implement in our northern regional but I think that for the time we will wait on a final word on Unkar and then go from there.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 2:29:22 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
Who is even on the BC right now?


TheHutts
fingersandteeth
Darth_Jim
spryguy1981
atmsalad/Darth_Frenchy
UrbanShmi
DarkDracul
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:00:19 PM
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Jen'ari, the story you are creating is quite fascinating. Out of curiosity, what instant reserves change did Timmer and I Champion?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:00:54 PM
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GG,

What specific squad(s) do you have in mind that Unkar and the floor rule are affecting?
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:07:52 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
GG,

What specific squad(s) do you have in mind that Unkar and the floor rule are affecting?


Separatist Wat/Dooku and San/New Nute, Voxyn "Pair of Queens", Republic Yoda/Kazdan for floor rules

Add Vader, Agent of Evil, Rebel Kazdan, and all other single-number Reserve pieces that have been permanently crushed and will never trigger again for Unkar
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:12:18 PM
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:
Jen'ari, the story you are creating is quite fascinating. Out of curiosity, what instant reserves change did Timmer and I Champion?


as far as i understand it Timmer was destroying reserves before urbanjedi even played his squad. than when unkar came out a large part of your defense for not changing unkar (at that time) was that it was too powerful.


The destruction of Reserves had two-fold.
1) Timmer b's desire to fix a Pong problem which also destroyed reserves in general.

and then

2) the defense of Unkar which included the idea that it defeated Daala and was an NPE to Timmer and to you. and whatever happened in the BalanceCommittee (if anything at all with Unkarr).


Point being that you and Timmer were the main players in Unkar being designed and than Unkar not being changed.


So quite frankly it is even worse than an immediate reaction for being defeated because it was ALREADY coming out. Timmerb being the #1 and you being the support/#2. Like I said earlier 2 birds with 1 stone.

EDIT: lets not forget the Pong being a personal issue for Tim that he wanted to personally erase.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:18:06 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
GG,

What specific squad(s) do you have in mind that Unkar and the floor rule are affecting?


Separatist Wat/Dooku and San/New Nute, Voxyn "Pair of Queens", Republic Yoda/Kazdan for floor rules

Add Vader, Agent of Evil, Rebel Kazdan, and all other single-number Reserve pieces that have been permanently crushed and will never trigger again for Unkar


Can you give a complete squad or two and the level you're expecting it to be after whatever your desired changes are? Tier 1? Tier 2? Broken good?

I'm not even someone who can do anything for you, but I thought you'd be happy with the NTMTO squads that Jason posted. If I haven't understood what you're looking for, there's a good chance the balance team as a whole doesn't either. It would be good to give a more complete elaboration.
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:42:56 PM
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Sure thing Flying,

--The Confederate Coffers--
57 Count Dooku, Separatist Leader
43 Wat Tambor, Techno Union Foreman
36 Darth Sidious
19 Monnok
17 Ghhhk
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
10 San Hill
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

Preferred Reserves:
(Dooku SL) 15 BX Commando Droid Sniper
(Dooku SL) 4 Battle Droid
(Lobot, CLO) 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa
(San Hill) 16 Poggle the Lesser
(San Hill) 9 Battle Droid Officer
(San Hill) 3 Geonosian Drone
(Wat Tambor TUF) 19 BX Commando Droid Spotter
(Wat Tambor TUF) 3 Mouse Droid

(200pts. 8 activations)


--Pair of Queens--
100 Voxyn Queen x2
37 Prefect Da'Gara
28 Nei Rin
28 Zenoc Quah
20 Voxyn Handler
3 Shamed One

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 15 Yammosk War Coordinator
(Prefect Da'Gara) 5 Zonoma Sekot Scout

Preferred Reserves:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 19 Yomin Carr
(Voxyn Queen) 20 Feral Voxyn

(200pts. 9 activations)



--Grand Army of the Republic Muppets-Style--
100 Yoda, Hero of Geonosis
55 Kazdan Paratus
27 Lobot
16 Qui-Gon Jinn, Force Spirit

(198pts. 4 activations)


For Unkar:

--The Imperial War Machine--
65 Darth Vader, Agent of Evil
33 Seventh Sister
31 Tyber Zann
21 Marn Hierogryph
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
11 Admiral Ozzel
22 Stormtrooper Advance Scout x2

(198pts. 8 activations)

-Raxus Prime--
55 Kazdan Paratus
35 Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter
20 K-3PO
20 Yoda, Force Spirit
19 Monnok
17 Ghhhk
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
12 Gha Nachkt
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
4 Mouse Droid x2

(200pts. 11 activations)

-Return of The Battle of Naboo--
63 Grievous on Tsmeu-6 Wheel Bike
17 Viceroy Nute Gunray
15 Battle Droid Sergeant
12 Gha Nachkt
10 San Hill
8 Battle Droid Officer
72 Battle Droid x24
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 31 activations)


Or any piece with reserves just being shut down
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:48:03 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Darth_Frenchy wrote:
Jen'ari, the story you are creating is quite fascinating. Out of curiosity, what instant reserves change did Timmer and I Champion?


as far as i understand it Timmer was destroying reserves before urbanjedi even played his squad. than when unkar came out a large part of your defense for not changing unkar (at that time) was that it was too powerful.


The destruction of Reserves had two-fold.
1) Timmer b's desire to fix a Pong problem which also destroyed reserves in general.

and then

2) the defense of Unkar which included the idea that it defeated Daala and was an NPE to Timmer and to you. and whatever happened in the BalanceCommittee (if anything at all with Unkarr).


Point being that you and Timmer were the main players in Unkar being designed and than Unkar not being changed.


So quite frankly it is even worse than an immediate reaction for being defeated because it was ALREADY coming out. Timmerb being the #1 and you being the support/#2. Like I said earlier 2 birds with 1 stone.

EDIT: lets not forget the Pong being a personal issue for Tim that he wanted to personally erase.

So assumptions and conjecture, lol, got it!
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:50:09 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Sure thing Flying,

--The Confederate Coffers--
57 Count Dooku, Separatist Leader
43 Wat Tambor, Techno Union Foreman
36 Darth Sidious
19 Monnok
17 Ghhhk
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
10 San Hill
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

Preferred Reserves:
(Dooku SL) 15 BX Commando Droid Sniper
(Dooku SL) 4 Battle Droid
(Lobot, CLO) 28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa
(San Hill) 16 Poggle the Lesser
(San Hill) 9 Battle Droid Officer
(San Hill) 3 Geonosian Drone
(Wat Tambor TUF) 19 BX Commando Droid Spotter
(Wat Tambor TUF) 3 Mouse Droid

(200pts. 8 activations)


--Pair of Queens--
100 Voxyn Queen x2
37 Prefect Da'Gara
28 Nei Rin
28 Zenoc Quah
20 Voxyn Handler
3 Shamed One

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 15 Yammosk War Coordinator
(Prefect Da'Gara) 5 Zonoma Sekot Scout

Preferred Reserves:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 19 Yomin Carr
(Voxyn Queen) 20 Feral Voxyn

(200pts. 9 activations)

--Pair of Queens--
100 Voxyn Queen x2
37 Prefect Da'Gara
28 Nei Rin
28 Zenoc Quah
20 Voxyn Handler
3 Shamed One

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 15 Yammosk War Coordinator
(Prefect Da'Gara) 5 Zonoma Sekot Scout

Preferred Reserves:
(Prefect Da'Gara) 19 Yomin Carr
(Voxyn Queen) 20 Feral Voxyn

(216pts. 9 activations)




For Unkar:

--The Imperial War Machine--
65 Darth Vader, Agent of Evil
33 Seventh Sister
31 Tyber Zann
21 Marn Hierogryph
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
11 Admiral Ozzel
22 Stormtrooper Advance Scout x2

(198pts. 8 activations)

-Raxus Prime--
55 Kazdan Paratus
35 Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter
20 K-3PO
20 Yoda, Force Spirit
19 Monnok
17 Ghhhk
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
12 Gha Nachkt
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
4 Mouse Droid x2

(200pts. 11 activations)

-Return of The Battle of Naboo--
63 Grievous on Tsmeu-6 Wheel Bike
17 Viceroy Nute Gunray
15 Battle Droid Sergeant
12 Gha Nachkt
10 San Hill
8 Battle Droid Officer
72 Battle Droid x24
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 31 activations)


Or any piece with reserves just being shut down



Don't forget about the 100 point Yoda in Republic also! his reserves are on a 5/10/15/20 also!
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 3:53:18 PM
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One of my pastes was accidently double, republic Yoda is on there now. And none of them are tier 1. A couple 1.5-2 maybe but at least they were compeltive teams in a fun way. Now all of those cannot be played. These were variations or actual versions of ones I have brought to tournaments over the years and had lots of fun with if nothing else. Nothing is particularly strong, which is why I don't get the nerfs
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, February 3, 2018 4:07:28 PM
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:


So assumptions and conjecture, lol, got it!


Um they are actually facts.
Fact timb had it out for reserves.
Fact he felt bad about pong and wanted it fixed
Fact you lost to reserves
Fact you liked that unkar came out and fought for it not to be changed
Fact you went UNDEFEATED at gencon using a piece that many people want banned/changed and do not think it needs a change
Fact you are on the balance committee that has the power to change unkar.
Fact timmerb and you are great friends and have colluded in the past on issues.
Fact you play daala a lot and went undefeated at the biggest tournament we have and have publicly declared that daala is fine

I will let everyone else do the math
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