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Changing of the Guard Options
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2019 8:23:29 PM
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quote=jen'ari]Kybuck is the most defeated piece in gencon history.

Can we now say that Kybuck doesn't win and that Republic are lowest tier (and need help)?
Can we now say that Imperials (Thrawn swap) is in a tier of its own?
Can we now say that it would be great to have powerful, meta changing pieces?[/quote]


I would love to see a change too. I think the easiest way to fix a dominant piece is to do what they do in other games. Retire the mini ( nicer term for ban ), and not allow it in competition!


Nomination #1:

Thrawn "Mithurondu" ( or however you spell it )
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2019 8:50:11 PM
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kiki
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2019 11:10:11 PM
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Thrawn is very powerful indeed, but I don't see why the vset team can't just make pieces of equal power?

If anything, I'd ban Talon Karde just to piss a certain someone off.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 2:44:20 AM
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Retiring Thrawn is definitely the most sure fire way to bring about change.
It does present a few challenges in our game.
Thrawn is a deterrent to Daala, which is a very important thing.
Take away Thrawn and Daala pops right back up imo.
Most people's play styles have been an exact result of Thrawn being in the game.

I think that Thrawn is such a standard it would be hard to retire the piece at this point.

I think we would have better overall success in trying to compete with Thrawn. The problem is designer doubt (possibly from low play-testing) in creating a Power 10 piece.

You look at things coming out and the best designs have the same pattern
"YES! that looks awesome!"
followed by "what can I play with that?"
followed by "oh this isn't as good as that, but it looks fun!"

Which is a HUGE thing and I don't want to take away from the fun and theme coming out. I think people are really enjoying the game right now. So much that we tend to forget that at the cutthroat competition levels Imperials have an iron fist.

Anyway, designers need 3 things IMO.

#1 "Community input" on what factions should be helped.

#2 "Green light" that if they try something fun and powerful that they will not be "shamed" and that a small errata is not the end of the world. That one season of playing with a "too powerful" piece is better then the status quo. I think designers need to know that at this point it is time for a Power 10 piece. Especially for Republic, Separatists, and Sith.

#3 Play testing for the piece. Designers need to have feedback to build the best Power 10 piece that is not a Power 9 or a power 11. It is difficult to find the right spot. It might even be that the Power 10 pieces come out in a year instead of the next set.


DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 11:27:56 AM
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kiki wrote:
Thrawn is very powerful indeed, but I don't see why the vset team can't just make pieces of equal power?

If anything, I'd ban Talon Karde just to piss a certain someone off.


Hahaha. You're a funny guy ( or girl- I want to be politically correct ).

Yeah, that would make sense, because Talon has won a ton of GenCons like Thrawn------------oh wait, he hasn't won 1 Cool
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 1:04:39 PM
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^^^^

Good point.
But Talon is powerful enough if the pieces around him are powerful enough or "techy" enough.
Its just people are afraid because Morrigan and Boba push the squad to close to tier 1. So there has never been a piece better then those or that comes close since.
There has been no all fringe tech that helps the all fringe squad either.

We can do similar things with other factions.
38 point revan has a damage boost and a pretty good movement breaker and is a decent fighter. What's pieces have come out with him in mind?

Seps have twin..... Tell me one decent piece that can be played with whorm from sets 10 and up. I think Riff Tamson is the best fit with whorm... Dooku can be played but sucks.
Seps should get a command tower piece or something that make their ce's board wide and can't be disrupted except by adjacent characters.
Then pieces should be allowed to be played with Whorm.

Etc etc.

I just think that there is enough power ready to be used that can rival Thrawn. They just need pieces coming out that utilize the strengths factions already contain. Not hide from it.
kezzamachine
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 1:37:49 PM
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I think Thrawn is fine. Morrigan, however, I feel is an issue.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 3:23:53 PM
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I'm not really a fan of banning a piece just because it's a top tier. Rather than shaking up the meta, it just makes the next best choice move up to the top spot.

Also, once you ban one piece, then there'll be demands for quite a few more. Like when GOWK got banned for a time, people where then trying to get Boba, BH and a few others banned from play at the same time.

What might be interesting is making an alternate format that utilizes tiers, like how competitive pokemon battling is. In the Pokemon community, a Pokemon gets a tier rating (Uber, Overused, Underused, Rarely Used, and Never Used) which then determines what type of competitions it can take part of. So, if a Pokemon is in the Overused category, it can be used in an Uber or Overused battle, but not an Underused or lower one. Something similar could be applied to SWM, but it would require a bit of play and tweaking to make sure everyone gets into the right bracket.
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 3:58:07 PM
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By the way everyone, that's 4 out if the last 5 yrs, that Imps have been on top. Thrawn Mithu, has been the consistant mini in 3 of the 4 squads! These are staggering stats/facts, that no one can debate or dispute!
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 5:14:52 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
I think Thrawn is fine. Morrigan, however, I feel is an issue.


Morrigan was in 2 of the 4 Imp squads. Thrawn has her beat bud ThumpUp
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 5:42:59 PM
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Leave the minis we have the way they are. Level the playing field by creating counters and powerful new characters for other factions. That's my vote.
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:05:35 PM
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gandalfthegreatestwizard wrote:
Leave the minis we have the way they are. Level the playing field by creating counters and powerful new characters for other factions. That's my vote.


PALPATINE: "There is no civility, only politics. The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good. I must be frank, Your Majesty. There is little chance the Senate will act on the invasion."

Now, only if Chancellor Valorum was here to help us with this meta problem of the Imps complete dominance. Oh but wait. There's probably going to be an Amidala sighting on the boards, which will cause us to go down in flames Scared
DarthMaim
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:13:53 PM
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Princess Leia Organa

"General Kenobi. Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack, and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

Is there an "Obi-Wan Kenobi" in our SWM community. If so, please step forward ThumbsUp
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 6:41:10 PM
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What is the opinion on why Imperial Swap is so much better than Republic Swap? I don't get it. They both have access to Boardwide swap and opportunist.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:10:03 PM
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Caedus wrote:
What is the opinion on why Imperial Swap is so much better than Republic Swap? I don't get it. They both have access to Boardwide swap and opportunist.


Master Tactician, Ysalamiri access, tempo control, less cost.

it cost 40 for full board swap, auto init, and opportunist in Imperials.
It costs 52 for full board swap, opportunist, Recon, Bodyguard

Imperials have access to Ysalamiri.
Imperials have access to tempo control.

So really that level of tech is not really seen anywhere else.
Best Force suppressant in ysalamiri, best movement breaker in Full-Board Swap, best initiative control (I guess Sense the Future is better), 2nd best tempo control (dodonna wins), and 2nd best damage boost in Opportunist.

Just can't be matched very easily.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:14:58 PM
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So Thrawn really isn't the problem then, the low cost tech is? That's what I reading, anyway. Meaning, if the Republic had the same access to everything on the cheap, Panaka would rival Thrawn then
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:22:09 PM
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Caedus wrote:
So Thrawn really isn't the problem then, the low cost tech is? That's what I reading, anyway. Meaning, if the Republic had the same access to everything on the cheap, Panaka would rival Thrawn then


well of course if they had the same access on the cheap it would be. Cheap tech is a huge issue. Shmi15 has been talking about cheap tech for a very long time and the lack of it in other factions.

I mean rebels can get disruptive, evade, mobile attack, pseudo-cloaked, cannon shot, etc for super cheap as well.

But make no mistake Master Tactician is a HUGE deal.
But I agree that the other pieces make it even more powerful.

But I mean....
Thrawn is a dominant figure, lets not downplay it he controls the entire game with his abilities. The entire squad is built around Thrawn himself.
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:22:38 PM
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Right now I have it Imp 40pts Boardwide swap, init control, Opp

Repub 49pts Boardwide swap, limited init control (that counters Thrawn's), but no Opp (21 more for that and limited)
Caedus
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:27:04 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:
So Thrawn really isn't the problem then, the low cost tech is? That's what I reading, anyway. Meaning, if the Republic had the same access to everything on the cheap, Panaka would rival Thrawn then


well of course if they had the same access on the cheap it would be. Cheap tech is a huge issue. Shmi15 has been talking about cheap tech for a very long time and the lack of it in other factions.

I mean rebels can get disruptive, evade, mobile attack, pseudo-cloaked, cannon shot, etc for super cheap as well.

But make no mistake Master Tactician is a HUGE deal.
But I agree that the other pieces make it even more powerful.

But I mean....
Thrawn is a dominant figure, lets not downplay it he controls the entire game with his abilities. The entire squad is built around Thrawn himself.


But what I'm saying is that Panaka would be the same Dominant figure in this case. So it truly seems that the low cost tech is the issue. Which is what I have been saying for the last few years. Daala and Thrawn really aren't the issue, the fact that they have access to extremely low cost tech, is.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 3, 2019 7:49:26 PM
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Caedus wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:
So Thrawn really isn't the problem then, the low cost tech is? That's what I reading, anyway. Meaning, if the Republic had the same access to everything on the cheap, Panaka would rival Thrawn then


well of course if they had the same access on the cheap it would be. Cheap tech is a huge issue. Shmi15 has been talking about cheap tech for a very long time and the lack of it in other factions.

I mean rebels can get disruptive, evade, mobile attack, pseudo-cloaked, cannon shot, etc for super cheap as well.

But make no mistake Master Tactician is a HUGE deal.
But I agree that the other pieces make it even more powerful.

But I mean....
Thrawn is a dominant figure, lets not downplay it he controls the entire game with his abilities. The entire squad is built around Thrawn himself.


But what I'm saying is that Panaka would be the same Dominant figure in this case. So it truly seems that the low cost tech is the issue. Which is what I have been saying for the last few years. Daala and Thrawn really aren't the issue, the fact that they have access to extremely low cost tech, is.


I don't disagree with you. Every faction with Temp control and a movement breaker (or really good movement abilities) is uber powerful.
5 out of the last 5 gencon winners utilized Ozzel or Dodonna in their squad. (yep).

So of course no one can argue cheap temp control is an issue. But it is always a mix of things that makes power. Separatists have temp control as well (but it can't be turned off like others can). So that right there is a key holding seps back.
The combo of swap, opportunist, and act control is insanely powerful and has been used in 3 out of the last 5 gencon winners.
That combo at that cost outdoes anything Republic has to offer. Panaka is outclassed by Thrawn in an absurd way to be fair.
Whilst Republic is spending time paying for init control and opportunist Imperials are paying for Ysalamiri and a turn off of tempo.

Like I said, Thrawn seems to be a counter to Daala, so get rid of Thrawn and Daala just comes right back using that same cheap tech.

But Thrawn is an issue any way you look at it. He was an issue before Pellaeon.
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