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Spry's Mando squad was 4-0 through swiss, wasn't melee heavy, and still lost to Nick. But you're right, there was zero chance Nick or Stephen would've beaten Graham's squad. Especially since Graham was running it.
On a lighter note. I'm beyond terrible at this game.
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Yeah, Nick beating Spry was the one exception to Luke beating the melee squads. However, it was played on Anchorhead, and from what I saw in that game Nick was able to move through the rooms at the top of the map and Spry split his forces up to get on both sides of Nick's squad, and that allowed Nick to run Luke at MtV and Kelborn and kill them. If Matt had kept MtV further back so Luke couldn't get to him and used his Override advantage better he probably could have won that game.
I still think in general shooters should beat Luke MotO squads, despite that anomaly. It's probably 80% in favor of the shooting squads, and that just fell into the other 20%.
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Echo24 wrote:Yeah, Nick beating Spry was the one exception to Luke beating the melee squads. However, it was played on Anchorhead, and from what I saw in that game Nick was able to move through the rooms at the top of the map and Spry split his forces up to get on both sides of Nick's squad, and that allowed Nick to run Luke at MtV and Kelborn and kill them. If Matt had kept MtV further back so Luke couldn't get to him and used his Override advantage better he probably could have won that game.
I still think in general shooters should beat Luke MotO squads, despite that anomaly. It's probably 80% in favor of the shooting squads, and that just fell into the other 20%. I am glad to see that this piece did good, considering I predicted the bounter hunter challenge pieces were better then what others said they were... woohoo. Score 1 for me this regional season, also glad to see it beat a squad that people said should beat it pretty easily :). Blowing my own horn don't want to argue though :).
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Honestly, if you saw the semi final and final matches, you wouldn't suggest anyone play that Luke. We've talked about tiers as nausea before, and I stick by the definition that if a squad has an auto loss that is likely to be played it can be tier 1.5 at absolute best. Stealth and Blue vs Luke MotO is one of the biggest auto losses I've ever seen (seriously, ask any of the half dozen people watching those games from beginning to end), and it's a pretty common squad. Luke MotO is tier 1.5 at best, and probably best on Map List B. I've always like the BHC pieces, but have always said that they are tier 1.5 at best. Their abysmal failure to close a tournament was more proof for that than against it.
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Echo24 wrote:Honestly, if you saw the semi final and final matches, you wouldn't suggest anyone play that Luke. We've talked about tiers as nausea before, and I stick by the definition that if a squad has an auto loss that is likely to be played it can be tier 1.5 at absolute best. Stealth and Blue vs Luke MotO is one of the biggest auto losses I've ever seen (seriously, ask any of the half dozen people watching those games from beginning to end), and it's a pretty common squad. Luke MotO is tier 1.5 at best, and probably best on Map List B. I've always like the BHC pieces, but have always said that they are tier 1.5 at best. Their abysmal failure to close a tournament was more proof for that than against it. I don't really see it that way, their ability to make top 4 twice and beat a "counter" squad is pretty impressive. Yeah they have a hard counter in stealth in blue no way to even begin to discuss that lol, that version of the luke moto order squad loses 10 out of 10 times to stealth in blue, but honestly i dont personally think that was the best version of the luke squad possible. and did graham succesfully get a 3 point win against the luke sqauds both times he faced it? I am not in this to argue or make anyone angry or anything, I just want to see if anyone else thinks this may become a piece that others look at building around after this showing... or if the loss in the top 4 is enough to make no one want to look at it again.
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Graham's semifinal game was over in about 15 minutes, his final game was over in about 50 and was played pretty casually since both players knew who would win. So easy 3 point wins.
Someone could definitely win a regional with Luke MotO. That doesn't make it a tier 1 piece in my opinion. But that discussion has been had many, many times and its way out of the scope of this thread.
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Echo24 wrote:Graham's semifinal game was over in about 15 minutes, his final game was over in about 50 and was played pretty casually since both players knew who would win. So easy 3 point wins.
Someone could definitely win a regional with Luke MotO. That doesn't make it a tier 1 piece in my opinion. But that discussion has been had many, many times and its way out of the scope of this thread. I am not asking if anyone thinks it is tier 1, we had that argument long ago, lol. I am basically wondering if anyone thinks they may try to play around with this luke for a regional, or if they think this was a one and done type thing where it does well, but its flaw was so blatant that people shy away from it for the rest of the regional season.
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I'll also point out that when you first talked about the BHC pieces you said "these pieces are ridiculously overpowered and will be bad for the game..."
People disagreed with that. People didn't say that they sucked, or that they could never do well in a regional. I don't want to start a fight or anything, but if you want to "blow your own horn", lets not revise history. You argued that they were better than what some people claimed, but that's because other people claimed that they're good but not great, and you argued that they are overpowered. I think that "good but not great" is still where they stand.
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Echo24 wrote:I'll also point out that when you first talked about the BHC pieces you said "these pieces are ridiculously overpowered and will be bad for the game..."
People disagreed with that. People didn't say that they sucked, or that they could never do well in a regional. I don't want to start a fight or anything, but if you want to "blow your own horn", lets not revise history. You argued that they were better than what some people claimed, but that's because other people claimed that they're good but not great, and you argued that they are overpowered. I think that "good but not great" is still where they stand. and the first time they are ran they go to top 4 twice, beating you in the process running if i remember a pretty shooter heavy squad (i may be wrong here tho so correct me if i am) and they lost in top 4 to a squad that we all had determined would beat it... but also beat one of the squads everyone was throwing around would beat it.... and ppl did say they were not good.... DarthMaim wrote: At GenCon, in the Bounty Hunter Challenge, I played against both figs. Against Sidious, I destroyed him with my Weir, Storm Commando squad. Against Luke, I beat him with my Bastila squad, Jak, and Carth squad. I handled them quite easily. Come on guys, these are 100 pt pieces They are too high priced to be competitive. They are half your team. Shooting squads eat them for breakfast, second breakfast, lunch, and dinner :)
now granted i did say that they were overpowered, but as i admitted in a different post, i was wrong about ANYTHING being TRULY overpowered, there are way to many squads that can be awesome to make a single squad that just wins all the time I have admitted that and will continue to admit that, but the point of this whole entire thing was to see if anyone else felt like after this showing they may be tempted to continue to try them out in a regional setting.....
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The basic problem with either of the 2 BHC pieces is that overall they aren't there. Sure they can easily make top 4 of a regional (and maybe even win one) but that doesn't mean that they are top tier or even good. I don't see anyone out there arguing that the lightsaber training droid squad that made top 4 at MI is a squad to be reckoned with or looked into more. They are all 1 trick ponies that can catch people by surprise if they are not prepared.
With Luke, you just don't have enough room for all the stuff you need. The squad that made top 4 is really good at what it does, but basically has no door control, no movement breaker, very few activations, and no shooter. While this can be ok on certain maps, it is terrible on others and could lead to many a lockout if the other player can take care of the one or two ugos that were played with it. And if you change it up and add any of the things it lacks, then it isn't as good as it was against those things and it just all falls apart because Luke just costs so much.
With Palps, it is the fact that you still want to run Thrawn so you end up with something like an old school black and blue, but stealth and blue is just better in most matchups. Sure, in some matchups, palps can be beatings, but it isn't as well rounded overall.
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urbanjedi wrote:The basic problem with either of the 2 BHC pieces is that overall they aren't there. Sure they can easily make top 4 of a regional (and maybe even win one) but that doesn't mean that they are top tier or even good. I don't see anyone out there arguing that the lightsaber training droid squad that made top 4 at MI is a squad to be reckoned with or looked into more. They are all 1 trick ponies that can catch people by surprise if they are not prepared.
With Luke, you just don't have enough room for all the stuff you need. The squad that made top 4 is really good at what it does, but basically has no door control, no movement breaker, very few activations, and no shooter. While this can be ok on certain maps, it is terrible on others and could lead to many a lockout if the other player can take care of the one or two ugos that were played with it. And if you change it up and add any of the things it lacks, then it isn't as good as it was against those things and it just all falls apart because Luke just costs so much.
With Palps, it is the fact that you still want to run Thrawn so you end up with something like an old school black and blue, but stealth and blue is just better in most matchups. Sure, in some matchups, palps can be beatings, but it isn't as well rounded overall. ok cool this is what I was looking for mainly. do you think it is possible to maybe fit some more into the squad by dropping jacen and vergere for something like ganner, for movement and lowbaca for bodyguard and door control.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I don't really see it that way, their ability to make top 4 twice and beat a "counter" squad is pretty impressive. Yeah they have a hard counter in stealth in blue no way to even begin to discuss that lol, that version of the luke moto order squad loses 10 out of 10 times to stealth in blue, but honestly i dont personally think that was the best version of the luke squad possible. and did graham succesfully get a 3 point win against the luke sqauds both times he faced it?
I am not in this to argue or make anyone angry or anything, I just want to see if anyone else thinks this may become a piece that others look at building around after this showing... or if the loss in the top 4 is enough to make no one want to look at it again.
I am actually suprised that the Luke squad seen in the regionals did as well as it did. I can't think of any good way to build a Luke MotO squad to be top tier. In order to make him a tank in that squad design, you need to invest at least 63 points. To have leia, thats 88pts. How in the world did a squad with so little activation's do so well? I am really confused. Is Luke a good piece? Yes. Overpowered? Heck no! Do I think he's top tier? No. Tier 2, or tier 1.5 maybe.
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Okkk.......... Good discussion going on, that is what this is for! 1st- Tevor and I did say they were over powered... Then came back (after I think Echo, or someone else pointed something out) and said they are not as bad as we thought... So if your going to quote him when he was wrong... Please quote him when he/we ADMITTED we were  2nd- Using Graham as your argument is not a good strong point... It clear that he is year in and year out the best at the AL regional. (Winnin some 3 yeas in a row) So I will use the argument that you guys did with Mace... Of course Graham beat them down in 15 minutes... He was the best person at the regional and should've! (Like David Weeks says, don't give the tool more credit than the master) 3rd- When compared against people on the same talent level, and playing counter squads ( Red Squadron, Mando, and a NR squad with a 120 damage Accurate Greater Mobiling Shooter) it seemed to be unbeatable! Those are the results I look at. Same thing with Mace.. When in the hands of a skilled player, they will perform better than your average jo! (Which Mace proved last year 4th- I dunno if they will get used again this year, or I this was a 1 trick pony.... But I will say you can't prepare for a squad like this, they are so specific that you would need to design half your squad just to get a good answer! This regional is shaping up nice tho, and was glad to see a BC make it, regardless of all else, because I don't agree with the " he costs to muchto be competitive BS. If he is a good piece, he is a competitive piece! And please.. Lets keep this as much on topic as possible!
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Success in making it into the top 4, updated with Atlanta Regional results (and including LowerHuttACon):
Imperial: made the Top 4 3 times in 5 attempts: 60%
Separatist: made the Top 4 3 times in 8 attempts: 38%
Sith: made the Top Four 4 times in 11 attempts: 36%
New Republic: made the Top 4 3 times in 10 attempts: 30%
Republic: made the Top 4 twice in 10 attempts: 20%
Mandos: made the Top 4 once in 6 attempts: 17%
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TheHutts wrote:Success in making it into the top 4, updated with Atlanta Regional results (and including LowerHuttACon):
Imperial: made the Top 4 3 times in 5 attempts: 60%
Separatist: made the Top 4 3 times in 8 attempts: 38%
Sith: made the Top Four 4 times in 11 attempts: 36%
New Republic: made the Top 4 3 times in 10 attempts: 30%
Republic: made the Top 4 twice in 10 attempts: 20%
Mandos: made the Top 4 once in 6 attempts: 17% hmm, interesting. Imps dominating is not a very big surprise to me but seeing republic down towards the bottom is shocking considering all the talk about death shot klats being so good. still can't belive no one has made it with rebels, that has to be most shocking of all. Thanks for the update.
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TheHutts wrote:Success in making it into the top 4, updated with Atlanta Regional results (and including LowerHuttACon):
Imperial: made the Top 4 3 times in 5 attempts: 60%
Separatist: made the Top 4 3 times in 8 attempts: 38%
Sith: made the Top Four 4 times in 11 attempts: 36%
New Republic: made the Top 4 3 times in 10 attempts: 30%
Republic: made the Top 4 twice in 10 attempts: 20%
Mandos: made the Top 4 once in 6 attempts: 17% if it's not too much trouble, next time the list is updated, can the factions that haven't made it be added? So we can see how many attempt there have been?
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crazybirdman wrote:
if it's not too much trouble, next time the list is updated, can the factions that haven't made it be added? So we can see how many attempt there have been?
OK! Imperial: made the Top 4 3 times in 5 attempts: 60% Separatist: made the Top 4 3 times in 8 attempts: 38% Sith: made the Top Four 4 times in 11 attempts: 36% New Republic: made the Top 4 3 times in 10 attempts: 30% Republic: made the Top 4 twice in 10 attempts: 20% Mandos: made the Top 4 once in 6 attempts: 17% Rebel: 2 attempts Old Republic: 3 attempts Yuuzhan Vong: 6 attempts I still think all the factions are pretty good though! I'd rather see this list as a challenge to do well with Old Republic, Rebels, and Vong, rather than condemning them to the scrapheap. Still lots of Regionals and Gencon to go. Also, according to my numbers from all results (this involves some aggregation from a couple of the Regionals where there weren't exact places given for the lower finishers). 1 means only 1st places in Regionals, 0 means only last places in Regionals: Imperial: 0.75 New Republic: 0.60 (significantly boosted by Atlanta, with 4 NR squads in the top 6) Republic: 0.55 Separatist: 0.52 Sith: 0.48 Yuuzhan Vong: 0.38 Mandalorian: 0.36 Old Republic: 0.28 Rebel: 0.26
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Well.... an interesting list here at the Charlotte Regional...
1st Place David Weeks 3-1 9pts
Satele
Atton
Bastila
Carth
Klat
Filler
2nd Place Matt Spry 3-1 9pts (bye)
Cad-BH
Zuckuss-BH
Hondo
Aurra
Lobot
Poggle
Filler
3rd Place Nick Ferguson 3-1 7pts
100pt Luke
Leia
Jarael
Evazan
Lobot
Dodonna
4th Place Greg Sutton 3-1 6pts
Cad
Arica
Thrawn
Pellaeon
Mas
Lobot
Filler
5th Place Scott Harn 2-2 6pts (bye)
GAT
Weir
3x Storm Commandos
Pellaeon
Nyna
Mas
Filler
6th Place Jon Clayton 2-2 5pts
Cad
Nom
Yomin
Yammosk
Quoreal
lots of workers
7th Place Phil Ricciardi 2-2 5pts (bye)
Mandalore the Vindicated
Kelborn
Captain
Fenn
Protector
Scout
Filler
8th Place Stephen Sloop 1-3 3pts (Bye)
100pt Luke
Leia
Vergere
Jacen
Dodonna
9th Place Cliff Ricciardi 1-3 2pts
Caedus
Malgus
Vergere
Marka-FS
Exar-FS
Filler
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OR on Cue coming in and winning a Regional. Standard new OR squad, 2nd was a Sep, Cad BH squad, right back into the mix,3rd, Luke MOTO again, 4th, Weir Storm Commandoes.
Gotta say, this Luke squad is back to 50/50 for me. Did well last regional, and then ran again by the 2 same guys, with the one making the top 4 changing his supporting cast, and the other finishing near the bottom. I'm curious if anyone knows the match ups for each squad?
Otheran than that, it seemed to be a pretty standard tournament in my eyes.
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And my phone is lost at the moment, cause i had complete squads for each top 4... But in slight memory
1- Jake,Sith- Caedus, Atton, GARY,czerka, GA Spec Guard
2- Tim B with Mandos (I think deathshots)
3/4 (dont remember, Gerry- Republic- Mace GOWK, HK
4/3- Jake K, Mando- I think Fenn Shysa and MTV
So this regional should shake things up... I dunno what all else was ran other than this... But its an odd top 4.
Sith with their first regional win this year, Caedus paving the way
Mando get some depth with 2 top 4's... and then Mace sneaks back up with the GOWK HK combo..... ran twice to my knowledge(could be more) made top 4 twice and won The non regional event in NY.
I will wait to see other squads to make an assessment on this one
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