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Moved from the Wisconsin Regional thread. Deaths_Baine wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:atmsalad wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:It's a good point you make about playing crap like that. It would be nice if the community would look at it and reject it for what it is, but that's not realistic.
Still anything is better than that abhorrent excrement Mike played in Indiana. It would also be nice to have some things that are rediculous and unnecessary removed from the game. We're still a competitive community and there will always be a player or two that plays what they think will give them the best chance at winning regardless of it's... Tact. I'm glad for that, if it wasn't that way I would not be nearly as involved as I am. Since we are still a competitive community I hope we will see some movement from the balance committee in the near future. Not necessarily needed until after gencon. +1 I agree with waiting til after gencon so we can truly see how these things go, but I am worried that some squads like jangalore and blast bugs that may prevent new players from really getting into the game if that's what they run into at gencon who wants to get out activated and then watch as they take automatic damage that they can't do anything about from outside a disruptive bubble from cloaked pieces that cost like 7-9....
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donnyrides wrote:The hipster in me refuses to use the easy way of ridiculous jangalore or bugs. I've play tested what I want to use vs these squads and I don't see anything that can get past the insane damage output + defensive measures of those 2 squads. Seems to be the hot squad type right now and the only way I see to get around it is building Hate for one or the other but then your are caught with your pants down for any other matchup.
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donnyrides wrote:The hipster in me refuses to use the easy way of ridiculous jangalore or bugs. I've play tested what I want to use vs these squads and I don't see anything that can get past the insane damage output + defensive measures of those 2 squads. Seems to be the hot squad type right now and the only way I see to get around it is building Hate for one or the other but then your are caught with your pants down for any other matchup. Any strafe or gallop (or movement breaker + Momaw) eats the cloaked blast buggers for dinner. There of plenty of great squads that can easily handle SPECIFICALLY the cloaked blast buggers. Not to say the warriors can't be beat - they can, they are just tougher to take down (but you get less of them obviously). It just so happens that Spry didn't face any of those squads (which is odd) in the Vassal Regional. Direct damage and ultra high attacks beat Jangalore. I ran him in the Vassal Regional, and Laura's direct damage and high attack squad ate him for dinner. Then I lost a squeaker to a NR Resistance squad - due to their crazy high attack. Jason missed his worse matchup (the other Mando squad - reasonably high attacks + traps + cloaked + death shots) altogether in Chicago, and his rematch vs the direct damage squad that beat him in swiss came down to player error to give Jason the win from what I understand. Long story short - both are beatable. They won due to good play and luck of the draw (both in matchups and what DIDN'T show up at the tournament). You are also bearing witness to the dreaded REGIONAL META. These squads (and I would add resistance to the list) almost always end up being gatekeeper squads, and don't need up winning (or even played a ton) at GenCon. Many players don't play their best stuff at Regionals anyway. So it ends up being a weird sub-meta meta that doesn't necessarily have a bearing on what you'll see at GenCon. Matchups become more important than ever, and with small tournaments, it feels like almost anything could win at a regional. Regardless, my guess is that nobody outside of WI will bring Jangalaore or Blast Bugs (I say outside of WI because I know those players better in general). No subterfuge intended here. I honestly have no clue what anyone is bringing. It's just my guess that it won't be those 2.
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i somewhat agree with you tim, to the extent that no one knows what the real meta is.
I don't think there will ever be a "gameplan" meta ever again, there are simply to many varied squads and squad types out there to try to plan for. I think people will/and should move to competitive squads that they learn backwards and forwards.
The problem is that there are a lot of competitive squads that may just face what should be considered an auto loss, and you can't count or discount facing them at any given tournament.
The issue I have is that some of these competitive squads are just stupid and should have never existed in the first place.... blast bugs.. seriously blast bugs... on pieces that are less then 10 points and have cloaked and start anywhere on their half of the map even if I could gameplan for them I shouldn't have to because it is a bad idea all the way around---and was stated as such by some of the top tier players during playtesting... not sure why that was ignored... but the not only was it ignored and allowed to exist, then they go and add +2 range to them so that some of the squads that can handle them...disruptive.... can no longer handle them... bad decisions here all the way around.
the other one is ultra high defense-armored-good damage pieces.... the object of the game is to attack and kill my enemies pieces, but when they have flight, besk'ar game, and a 31 defense... with 90 damage accurate shooting capabilities also while being able to kill multiple pieces with furious assault... its just bad as well.
basically... while the meta may be open, or nonexistent in the first place, there are just some squads that are inherently bad for the game.
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I'd like to reiterate... just because something is beatable doesn't mean it should exist or be acceptable.
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*cough* Just ban the Vong faction already 
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shmi15 wrote:*cough* Just ban the Vong faction already good call 
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Deaths_Baine wrote:shmi15 wrote:*cough* Just ban the Vong faction already good call Never! Vong for life! Hahaha But seriously these lovable aliens have been around since before the Mandalorians, Old Republic and Sith. I'd say ban all of those "legends factions" before going after one of the original 7 factions. Plus no greater counter to force ridiculousness than knowing there is a faction that just doesn't care. Haha. But blast bugs specifically could be looked at if they are causing as much grief as people claim. (I crushed them a few years back with a republic reserves team bringing in strafers, so bad that our main Vong player has not brought them to a regional since).
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General_Grievous wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:shmi15 wrote:*cough* Just ban the Vong faction already good call Never! Vong for life! Hahaha But seriously these lovable aliens have been around since before the Mandalorians, Old Republic and Sith. I'd say ban all of those "legends factions" before going after one of the original 7 factions. Plus no greater counter to force ridiculousness than knowing there is a faction that just doesn't care. Haha. But blast bugs specifically could be looked at if they are causing as much grief as people claim. (I crushed them a few years back with a republic reserves team bringing in strafers, so bad that our main Vong player has not brought them to a regional since). one of my all time favorite characters is vong---Vua Rapuung dude is a monster in the book he is in. Anyways, I feel like they are a lot like death shots...beatable but 0 fun to play against, while also being incredibly strong. Blast bugs took the spit poison squads to a whole new level.
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Vua rocks! Such a cool character in an awesome book and he has a sweet story.
I can see why they are annoying but direct damage has always been like that, double flamethrower tarpal builds anyone? Or from the force standpoint how about the classic force grip/lighting pieces? Sith witches and Palpatine for the old players, one guy used to bring that all of the time every game until I finally got fed up and brought aurra sing and gonks. All it takes is one bad loss and some players realize unbeatable squads aren't so unbeatable. It's why playing counters is sometimes a safe bet. But I wonder if a YVH mouse droid could help with something like Bug Interference (adjacent characters cannot be targeted by abilities whose name contain Bug)
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General_Grievous wrote:Vua rocks! Such a cool character in an awesome book and he has a sweet story.
I can see why they are annoying but direct damage has always been like that, double flamethrower tarpal builds anyone? Or from the force standpoint how about the classic force grip/lighting pieces? Sith witches and Palpatine for the old players, one guy used to bring that all of the time every game until I finally got fed up and brought aurra sing and gonks. All it takes is one bad loss and some players realize unbeatable squads aren't so unbeatable. It's why playing counters is sometimes a safe bet. But I wonder if a YVH mouse droid could help with something like Bug Interference (adjacent characters cannot be targeted by abilities whose name contain Bug) We should lobby for a better version of him. Dude was so good he should cost at least 40. Those also had some ways around them being disruption, accurate shot, etc. None of them at cloaked start halfway up the map and have a range of 8. It's not just the blast bug ability. Which was a mistake it's all the specialy abilities they have plus tech they have access to as well.
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I +1 this! Another Vua! Counterattack is awesome but he should have a programmed target-style vendetta ability. Or just Vong hunter.
And they do get pretty techy but the closer they are the easier it makes it to strafe them all haha. I think a soft anti-non-unique Vong counter is in order with a YVH mouse maybe? Or even a Tendro Arms Lando
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General_Grievous wrote:I +1 this! Another Vua! Counterattack is awesome but he should have a programmed target-style vendetta ability. Or just Vong hunter.
And they do get pretty techy but the closer they are the easier it makes it to strafe them all haha. I think a soft anti-non-unique Vong counter is in order with a YVH mouse maybe? Or even a Tendro Arms Lando strafe is actually easier said then done considering they can also have act control, and can bring in bodyguards, or self destruct, or a charging piece to kill the lancer. to much tech and customizing as well available here.
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shmi15 wrote:*cough* Just ban the Vong faction already While not the worst idea  not the best - IMHO. The most logical argument for Vong removal is they are no longer cannon. But then most of the New Republic should get the ax too. No, no - for simplicity (yeah, right!) keep what we have. Oh! Maybe we could give the Peace Brigade Soldiers Greater Mobile Attack...cause, they are kind of weak...
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Jangalore, Blast Bugs, The Father and Tarpals+Togorian squads are all beatable and have counters. There presently isn't a squad with the power that Daala had before her eventual nerfing. That is a very good thing for our Community and the Meta as a whole I do believe.
On the other hand there are several things I think we need to take into account. 2 of them being over powered squads, but not overly dominant, and squads/characters that create a barrier for future design or can swing future design in negative direction. I am at work so I can't go into much detail, for now i will address the topic at hand.
Most extreme swarms that I think are still an issue have several things in common. They have direct damage, they spam 8 point or lower non-uniques, and they are cloaked or super stealth-ed. The fact that 2 are in vong only further causes players to become annoyed. I think limiting the key commanders is the ideal solution. Yes we have changed the Warrior Caste Subcommander already, but many think its not enough.
To both the Warrior Caste Subcommander and the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think we should limit their CE's. In the case of the Warrior Caste Subcommander I think his CE should be changed to affecting Unique Vong. For the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think his CE should be limited to characters whose name contains Black Sun Vigo and characters named xizor. This removes the NPE nature of these squads, but still allows a rendition to be played, albeit a lot less powerful.
Designer intent is not a good excuse for keeping poor elements of our game intact. Some times people have bad ideas, lets own it, fix it, and move on with the game. Also, I am aware there are far reaching impacts when it comes to removing this stuff. Please do not give me a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument on this, its old and tired.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:I'd like to reiterate... just because something is beatable doesn't mean it should exist or be acceptable. I fully agree!
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atmsalad wrote:Jangalore, Blast Bugs, The Father and Tarpals+Togorian squads are all beatable and have counters. There presently isn't a squad with the power that Daala had before her eventual nerfing. That is a very good thing for our Community and the Meta as a whole I do believe.
On the other hand there are several things I think we need to take into account. 2 of them being over powered squads, but not overly dominant, and squads/characters that create a barrier for future design or can swing future design in negative direction. I am at work so I can't go into much detail, for now i will address the topic at hand.
Most extreme swarms that I think are still an issue have several things in common. They have direct damage, they spam 8 point or lower non-uniques, and they are cloaked or super stealth-ed. The fact that 2 are in vong only further causes players to become annoyed. I think limiting the key commanders is the ideal solution. Yes we have changed the Warrior Caste Subcommander already, but many think its not enough.
To both the Warrior Caste Subcommander and the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think we should limit their CE's. In the case of the Warrior Caste Subcommander I think his CE should be changed to affecting Unique Vong. For the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think his CE should be limited to characters whose name contains Black Sun Vigo and characters named xizor. This removes the NPE nature of these squads, but still allows a rendition to be played, albeit a lot less powerful.
Designer intent is not a good excuse for keeping poor elements of our game intact. Some times people have bad ideas, lets own it, fix it, and move on with the game. Also, I am aware there are far reaching impacts when it comes to removing this stuff. Please do not give me a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument on this, its old and tired. +1 to all of this
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To be more specific about my earlier post, I was on my approaching from the "how do you beat it?" angle. They can be beat by more than just hate squads. They can be beat by other all-around solid could win any tournament including Gen Con squads.
As Etienne put it - nothing is like Daala pre errata. And hopefully nothing ever will be.
That said - I agree some stuff just shouldn't happen.
Honestly I think the greater concern now is mass community NPEs.
These have a greater chance of driving players away than anything else.
The squads talked about here are clearly mass community NPEs
( well blast bugs are very clearly, I think it's a little too early to put Jangolore in that category)
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TimmerB123 wrote: To be more specific about my earlier post, I was on my approaching from the "how do you beat it?" angle.
As Etienne put it - nothing is like Daala pre errata. And hopefully nothing ever will be.
Honestly I think the greater concern now is mass community NPEs.
Of which these are clearly.
( well blast bugs are very clearly, I think it's a little too early to put Jangolore in that category) Ironically a good counter for jango.... vset Zam Wessel I love that piece lol.
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atmsalad wrote:
To both the Warrior Caste Subcommander and the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think we should limit their CE's. In the case of the Warrior Caste Subcommander I think his CE should be changed to affecting Unique Vong. For the Togorian Black Sun Vigo I think his CE should be limited to characters whose name contains Black Sun Vigo and characters named xizor. This removes the NPE nature of these squads, but still allows a rendition to be played, albeit a lot less powerful.
Designer intent is not a good excuse for keeping poor elements of our game intact. Some times people have bad ideas, lets own it, fix it, and move on with the game. Also, I am aware there are far reaching impacts when it comes to removing this stuff. Please do not give me a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument on this, its old and tired.
I think the Warrior Caste Subcommander solution should be a save 16 for no damage. Yes, more saves, more die rolling and more luck, but hell, this is just that kind of game. Frankly most unique Vong suck. Playing all unique Vong is about as much fun as playing against a Blast Bug squad when you've got armored force users. "Please do not give me a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument on this." Huh?
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