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Balance Committee Announcement 8/6/2021 Options
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 10:42:21 AM
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I get the pushback. I wasn't hearing about Mira and Zam as shooters breaking the game. I think thats why people are upset. I myself said that I didn't understand why she was being looked at.

However...

The change makes Rigged Detonators what they should be. Characters shouldn't be better shooters because of rigged detonators. The change makes Rigged Detonators exactly what they should be.

I think before this devolves into a big fight and the thread gets shut down, I would really like to hear from people with examples of how Mira impacted their games as a shooter. I know the potential is certainly there. I know I'm still on the periphery regarding play, only entering occasional tournaments. Maybe I just haven't been in enough games to see her impact as a shooter. I've been using her in Talon squads since 2013, but its mainly been for Rigged Detonators and 60pts of damage from a 28 point piece. She still has that in that squad. I've used her as much in my squads as anyone I've played.

So, while I agree with the balance committee's decision to fix Rigged Detonators, and also that the potential for abuse with her AND Zam is there, I just haven't seen the complaints about her as a shooter.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 11:35:07 AM
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Good question, Jim.

Part of it has to do with the range of Grenades...she has to get within 6, and so she has to at least make herself somewhat vulnerable if she wants to use RD. Since she's a fragile piece, this makes a difference. But if she can shoot from 12+ squares away with the same effect (no saves to avoid damage) then that's a significant threat.

The other part is that (in a Talon or Jabba squad) Mira's 60dmg is coming at a +18 Attack with a fprr if needed. She's not usually going to miss those attacks. Someone might respond, "Okay, but Boba AFH in a Talon/Jabba squad does 90dmg at +20 Attack, so it's not too far off base" ...but you can still Evade/Soresu/Deflect and Armor those shots (and he costs 50, not 28). With Mira the damage just sticks, and there's nothing you can do about it.

This has significantly affected my tactics and positioning in many games. In fact, depending on the map, my first target (even before Talon or Boba) has been Mira...partially because she's rather squishy, but also because my pieces are usually utterly helpless against her for as long as she's on the board.

If you want a specific example, I can point to our finals match at FrostyCon several years ago: I was playing Super-Stealth ERCs, and you (Jim) were playing Talon and Mira. Mira single-handedly destroyed my squad: not only did her Force Sense negate my SS, but doing unavoidable 60dmg meant that my Shields 2 was irrelevant. She only needed to roll 2s to kill a new ERC every round. If I at least could've kept my Shields saves, I might've been able to mount something of a counter-attack, but with RD as it was, there was literally nothing I could do. I remember your play report for that game saying this was the slowest game you had played all day, and RD was precisely the reason for that.

I'm sure there are other examples to share if I needed to, but this is the first one to come to mind.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 12:10:59 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:


If you want a specific example, I can point to our finals match at FrostyCon several years ago: I was playing Super-Stealth ERCs, and you (Jim) were playing Talon and Mira. Mira single-handedly destroyed my squad: not only did her Force Sense negate my SS, but doing unavoidable 60dmg meant that my Shields 2 was irrelevant. She only needed to roll 2s to kill a new ERC every round. If I at least could've kept my Shields saves, I might've been able to mount something of a counter-attack, but with RD as it was, there was literally nothing I could do. I remember your play report for that game saying this was the slowest game you had played all day, and RD was precisely the reason for that.

I'm sure there are other examples to share if I needed to, but this is the first one to come to mind.


This is exactly the kind of post that I am looking for. I didn't quote your entire post only because I don't think anyone is arguing that the potential isn't there, just that I couldn't think of anyone complaining about her as a shooter. This example is at least 4 years old, so surely people have more contemporary examples.

Please don't anyone take this as a challenge. Its just that there are a number of us who didn't even see this coming because we haven't heard the complaints.
gholli69
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 4:26:27 PM
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Another more recent example for you Jim, Tint and I played in the top six at vasselcon just a couple weeks ago. I was running VOL and 100pt. palps. He was running mandos with Mira. Mira let him totally get around Vaders Shien and armor saves which would have only needed 9 to avoid her damage and with being able to use palpys plethora of FP for rerolls I think Vader stays alive a lot longer than he did which wasnt very long largely due to RD. If RD had been changed before that game I would have at least based as many other of his characters with vader to make him shoot at him instead of throwing grenades so as not to damage his own characters. It does make a difference in some matchups for sure. As far as not clustering pieces in green squares as pointed out by Jenerai, the map we were playing on has virtually no squares in the gambit zone not bordered by green so he was able to negate Shien on Vader and palpatines evade with Mira. bigtime ouch.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 4:50:46 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
Another more recent example for you Jim, Tint and I played in the top six at vasselcon just a couple weeks ago. I was running VOL and 100pt. palps. He was running mandos with Mira. Mira let him totally get around Vaders Shien and armor saves which would have only needed 9 to avoid her damage and with being able to use palpys plethora of FP for rerolls I think Vader stays alive a lot longer than he did which wasnt very long largely due to RD. If RD had been changed before that game I would have at least based as many other of his characters with vader to make him shoot at him instead of throwing grenades so as not to damage his own characters. It does make a difference in some matchups for sure. As far as not clustering pieces in green squares as pointed out by Jenerai, the map we were playing on has virtually no squares in the gambit zone not bordered by green so he was able to negate Shien on Vader and palpatines evade with Mira. bigtime ouch.


I see no reason why that is a problem. Vader has defense, she has ways around defense. Vader has ways of getting to gambit and claiming it (battle ready).
I happened to be one of the first peeople to use vader and Palps.
I played ultrastar running a talon squad with Mira. I beat him so thoroughly he decided to use a completely different squad.
Before the match he said I had no chance partly because of Mira. That was on cantina map with green everywhere.

I think it is a player issue or a lack of experience with the squad or against Mira.
She should not be feared with Vader and palps
gholli69
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 5:40:30 PM
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I have run that squad in multiple tournaments and made the playoff cut at least a few times with it so not inexperince with the squad. We were playing on outlaw city which has literally no squares in the gambit zone not bordered by green. Miras high attack means she didn't miss Vader often. Believe me, it had a definite effect on the game to say otherwise is foolishness. I am sure Tint would agree if he feels like weighing in.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 6:44:19 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
I have run that squad in multiple tournaments and made the playoff cut at least a few times with it so not inexperince with the squad. We were playing on outlaw city which has literally no squares in the gambit zone not bordered by green. Miras high attack means she didn't miss Vader often. Believe me, it had a definite effect on the game to say otherwise is foolishness. I am sure Tint would agree if he feels like weighing in.


Yep, Mira won me that game, no question. With the current ruling, Vader would've at least been able to roll his Armor saves vs her grenades, and (as Greg said) his Shien would've caused me trouble.

In fact, I remember apologizing to Greg several times during that game, because of how stupid-good (broken) Mira is on that map. I had already been mentioning to people that I would be asking for a revision to RD, and this game that Greg referred to is what eliminated all doubt from my mind. With all of the extra movement tools that Mira has in my Mando squad, there is literally no place that is safe from her if I really want to reach someone.
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 7:02:32 PM
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gholli69 taking Vader-Emp to the final table in the Championship speaks for itself.
He's already proven that he knows what he's talking about and not just talking a bunch of malarkey.

People have been saying Rigged Detonators on attacks is broken for years.
I have seen Mira OTK a full 100hp Jaina Solo Fel, Jedi Master w/ MotF2 & Lightsaber Deflect.
Mira needed 2s to do 80 but she Crit on an attack to do 100 auto-damage instead.
One turn kill a 32pt Jaina tank . . . ridiculous.







FlyingArrow
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 7:08:54 PM
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DarkDracul wrote:
gholli69 taking Vader-Emp to the final table in the Championship speaks for itself.
He's already proven that he knows what he's talking about and not just talking a bunch of malarkey.

People have been saying Rigged Detonators on attacks is broken for years.
I have seen Mira OTK a full 100hp Jaina Solo Fel, Jedi Master w/ MotF2 & Lightsaber Deflect.
Mira needed 2s to do 80 but she Crit on an attack to do 100 auto-damage instead.
One turn kill a 32pt Jaina tank . . . ridiculous.









Just curious - what was her 2nd boost to get to 80dmg?
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, August 7, 2021 7:39:08 PM
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Mira 20 damage base +10 damage Jabba CE +10 damage Death Strike = +18atk for 40/40
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:00:22 AM
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Thanks. I was thinking it was a Talon squad.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 6:00:40 AM
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DarkDracul wrote:
gholli69 taking Vader-Emp to the final table in the Championship speaks for itself.
He's already proven that he knows what he's talking about and not just talking a bunch of malarkey.

People have been saying Rigged Detonators on attacks is broken for years.
I have seen Mira OTK a full 100hp Jaina Solo Fel, Jedi Master w/ MotF2 & Lightsaber Deflect.
Mira needed 2s to do 80 but she Crit on an attack to do 100 auto-damage instead.
One turn kill a 32pt Jaina tank . . . ridiculous.









To be fair, to kill Jaina she needed the crit. That was lucky, just like Mace or Boba BH. However, to your larger point, needing 2s to do 80 unpreventable IS ridiculous.

Thanks to everyone for posting their stories. I felt blindsided before this although I agree with the change in definition and in fact lobbied for that exact change. I guess my ear to the community isn't what it once was, and I guess a good reason why I no longer serve on the committee.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 8:54:30 AM
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A piece wins the game for you....
I have played in art least 2 games where an ugnaught has won me the game.
Straight up going to lose at the end of the round and an ugnaught hits for the win.

This is so silly. Mira attacks and does damage. Again... In a jabba squad she needs someone adjacent to your piece and that piece to be around a green square. Solution: don't let that happen. Or... Choose a better squad.
Jabba is very powerful but Jabba / Mira loses as well and isn't near as good as jabba / talzin.

Still no balance issue just a "I don't like it" issue.
Which, again, is not what the balance committee is for
gholli69
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 9:28:50 AM
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The issue Jen isn't that she hits and does damage. It is that the damage is likely to stick due to auto failing saves against regular attacks that can and often do have big damage boosts included. I understand that you don't like the way it affects Zam. However just because you don't like something doesn't mean there isn't a balance issue with Mira. At this point you have been Givin multiple examples of how she is abusive and your only response is Play better or pick a different squad? Personally, I don't know too many players if any who are better squad pilots than TINT and he is the one who started the discussion formally. Additionally, if any one piece is causing people to "play something else" in response to it, then it is probably an issue just like dalaa was. I don't think Mira is nearly on the level of dalaa, but she is warping the meta to a certain extent and I feel like the change made by the balance commitee in this instance should help curtail that.
adamb0nd
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 9:47:54 AM
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I think the change makes sense.

Not much to add other than I think this will gives SSM an unneeded leg up. But that's a fight for another day.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 10:13:02 AM
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gholli69 wrote:
The issue Jen isn't that she hits and does damage. It is that the damage is likely to stick due to auto failing saves against regular attacks that can and often do have big damage boosts included. I understand that you don't like the way it affects Zam. However just because you don't like something doesn't mean there isn't a balance issue with Mira. At this point you have been Givin multiple examples of how she is abusive and your only response is Play better or pick a different squad? Personally, I don't know too many players if any who are better squad pilots than TINT and he is the one who started the discussion formally. Additionally, if any one piece is causing people to "play something else" in response to it, then it is probably an issue just like dalaa was. I don't think Mira is nearly on the level of dalaa, but she is warping the meta to a certain extent and I feel like the change made by the balance commitee in this instance should help curtail that.


And all that is fine. If she meds changed, change her. I don't agree that she needs changed. I think design team can easily fix her issue.
However, whatever, let's go with she is warping the meta.

Change her, without affecting Zam.

The change should have been to her cost or something else. Again my suggestion was to make her base 10 damage.
I think That would have solved the issue everyone is having without affecting Zam.
Udorian84
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 12:24:35 PM
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I read the reports and things and if the argument is that Mira is powerful, she definitely is. If the argument is she is too powerful, the answer is no. I played my first time against Mira with an elite Republic commando squad. I got the upper hand and then my opponent moved 8 and grenades a piece that happened to be adjacent to 4 others. I had no idea that shields didn't work. That moved lost me the game for sure. It turned the game from my favor to no question my lost. It sucked. I told the person I was playing "lesson learned". If I had known the power of Mira I would have easily made adjustments and probably won the match. As for changing her. I don't know enough to say yes or no, I am just sad Zam changed. She was the first piece I put on a squad.

DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 4:17:04 PM
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Mira was fine and we didn't want to make a change to her.
We like her power level and how she requires opponents to learn to improve their game.
However, on many of our best maps, it's impossible to avoid Rigged Detonators.
The consensus of the Balance Committee and the community was that Rigged Detonators needed to change.
It was too much essentially guaranteed auto-damage than was good for game balance.

We all have nostalgic feelings towards certain characters in the game and it's easy to feel upset over changes that might affect them. However, Zam is still doing auto-damage Missiles 30 across the board. Some enemies might Beskar'gam that down to 20dam but most are going to take the full 30. She is still getting movement breaking to Double with the same high attack for the same damage. Enemies won't fear low cover as much but they might still fail their saves.
I don't think this change has much impact on her or Mira, it just means less of their damage is auto-damage.
Which will be more balancing for the game overall.
jak
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:04:51 PM
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I find it shameful that you chuckle heads are all worked up over a GD gameThumbDown ,
and you all seem to busy to raise a glass BlooMilk to SquelchDog
Cassus fett
Posted: Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:25:25 PM
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jak wrote:
I find it shameful that you chuckle heads are all worked up over a GD gameThumbDown ,
and you all seem to busy to raise a glass BlooMilk to SquelchDog


Concern trolling isn’t cool B.
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