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Balance Committee Announcement 8/6/2021 Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 2:13:00 PM
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I had played rigged detonators the wrong way (using the new ruling) until this summer. I think zam is well priced for a 60 auto damage piece (that can do that 60 auto to multiple units), with Mira still being power 10.



DarthMaim
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 2:57:27 PM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:
That much?
Her missiles still hit auto...so either 30 or 60 (if can do twice) auto damage...and her attack is phenomenal, plus the extra 30 damage on 50hp or less. Oh...and Cloaked.
Maybe just down to 40 pts?
(if at all...)


It's not auto! Players aren't stupid. Avoid the cover and go and spank Zam! Base her and she goes down fast and hard!
Darth Porg
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 6:31:06 PM
Rank: Tusken Raider
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Joined: 2/2/2018
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DarthMaim wrote:
It's not auto! Players aren't stupid. Avoid the cover and go and spank Zam! Base her and she goes down fast and hard!

Exactly, none of these changes would be needed if players would just learn to get good.
I mean unless you are stupid, it is easy to stay away from cover so that Zam and Mira can never touch you.

Here are some free advice for people crying about Zam and Mira being a problem.
First, study popular maps like the one below that I will use as an example.
Notice the safe setup areas? I marked them with smiley faces.
Notice the safe gambit squares? There are 2 and I marked them with smiley faces too.
Notice how easy it was to find those safe squares?
Stay on those squares you will completely destroy your opponent.
That is all you need to do to stop being a loser. Your welcome.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 7:33:38 PM
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Wow, that was CLASSIC!

I'm curious how absurd the Cantina map would look too.
Darth Porg
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 9:08:07 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Wow, that was CLASSIC!

I'm curious how absurd the Cantina map would look too.

Sure Im always glad to help struggling players learn how to get better.
It is even easier wit Cantina to see all the safe squares. This time I will use Porgs instead of smiley faces.
You might recognise some of these areas if you have ever played against a really good opponent.
They will often use the safest paths to approach the enemy.

It makes good sense that competitive maps would be covered in cover.
Many squads need cover for protection, stealth, cloakd, or just to slow enemies movement.
Of course that is excactly what Mira and Zam want to take advantage of.
So if you want to beat them you need to learn to switch to new taktics of avoiding cover.
Which is super easy if you just look at the map.

Here are some pro tips.
Cantina has a sense of iorney;
Noobs take the left side because its fastest to gambit and they think the bar is safe.
But if you look carefully you notice the entire left side has almost no safe squares.
So if you play against Zam or Mira don't be a noob and take the right side. Then it is easy.

The "Gamblers Den" is just to throw you off from the fact that it has the only safe gambit squares. There are only 3 of them and they are nothing like gambling. I know because I once woke up under a bridge without my pants.
Which is how you will feel if you try standing anywhere else in the middle of this map.

jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 3:48:31 AM
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We all know Mira can find you. But you can make it difficult for her to do so. You can make her expend her movement and end up in a dangerous spot herself.

You can also make sure she only gets 1 person.

I mean.... Every shooter has range across the entire board. This is a non issue. She also follows targeting rules. Accurate 90 shot is way way harder to get around
Blah Blah Words
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 3:55:57 AM
Rank: Storm Commando
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Joined: 4/30/2013
Posts: 17
Darth Porg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
It's not auto! Players aren't stupid. Avoid the cover and go and spank Zam! Base her and she goes down fast and hard!

Exactly, none of these changes would be needed if players would just learn to get good.
I mean unless you are stupid, it is easy to stay away from cover so that Zam and Mira can never touch you.

Here are some free advice for people crying about Zam and Mira being a problem.
First, study popular maps like the one below that I will use as an example.
Notice the safe setup areas? I marked them with smiley faces.
Notice the safe gambit squares? There are 2 and I marked them with smiley faces too.
Notice how easy it was to find those safe squares?
Stay on those squares you will completely destroy your opponent.
That is all you need to do to stop being a loser. Your welcome.


This was beautiful. I agree, the counter argument of just avoid cover is the literal antithesis of this game. The game for 5ever has revolved around getting/being in cover. The argument to avoid auto 60 by “just stand in the middle of the hallway” as if Zam doesn’t have insane attack is crazy. Guess I know for the tournament I’m only playing the Hoth map from now on.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 4:55:32 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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Blah Blah Words wrote:

This was beautiful. I agree, the counter argument of just avoid cover is the literal antithesis of this game. The game for 5ever has revolved around getting/being in cover. The argument to avoid auto 60 by “just stand in the middle of the hallway” as if Zam doesn’t have insane attack is crazy. Guess I know for the tournament I’m only playing the Hoth map from now on.


Mira came out in Vset 8..... that was 14 sets ago. it has been "forever" since she has been a large option in the game. She hasn't unbalanced the game in 14 sets.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 5:58:38 AM
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Joined: 5/8/2008
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Location: East Coast
If the original designer's intent of Rigged Detonators was to give a character unblockable attacks, then thank goodness it wasn't given to more characters!
However, I'm guessing, and only guessing, that putting attacks into the SA was an oversight. (correct me if I'm wrong please) It should only have ever been for special abilities (Grenades, Missiles, etc). Both for theme and for game play.
As shown with the illustrations above, the SAs are still dangerous on most maps and can hit multiple people...with no save. That's pretty potent when possible.
Forcing defenders into the open to avoid cover is just beneficial to the rest of your squad, usually. So your opponent still has a choice.
Mira at 28pts and Zam at 44pts...with all their other abilities/stats seems reasonable.
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 6:52:26 AM
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The main challenge with Zam is that she needs to stand still in order to really shine (double attack, careful shot, final shot), so her only A+ option when moving is to use Missiles 30. She already wasn't used very often before this, so I could see her cost dropping to 42, perhaps even 40 as a result of this change to RD; it seems to me that perhaps 38 might be too low. But I'm just thinking out loud here, so I could be convinced otherwise.

Mira is absolutely still good at 28pts, even with the RD change.

The impact (at least for Mira) of this change is that she can no longer shoot across the map for unpreventable damage on the green-heavy maps. Rather, she needs to get within 6. Zam, by contrast, is still a major threat from across the map because her Missiles have no range limit.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 7:36:14 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
The main challenge with Zam is that she needs to stand still in order to really shine (double attack, careful shot, final shot), so her only A+ option when moving is to use Missiles 30. She already wasn't used very often before this, so I could see her cost dropping to 42, perhaps even 40 as a result of this change to RD; it seems to me that perhaps 38 might be too low. But I'm just thinking out loud here, so I could be convinced otherwise.

Mira is absolutely still good at 28pts, even with the RD change.

The impact (at least for Mira) of this change is that she can no longer shoot across the map for unpreventable damage on the green-heavy maps. Rather, she needs to get within 6. Zam, by contrast, is still a major threat from across the map because her Missiles have no range limit.


This is the exact reason why the change is more relevant to Cantina (green heavy but more open) and makes little difference to Outlaw City (green heavy with many walls and tight corners). MUCH easier to get Mira within 6 safely on Outlaw City.

As discussed in the restricted map list change suggestions thread, Outlaw City overly benefits 1 squad type to the point of unbalanced. It needs to go
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