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Fall Vassal Tournament Discussion Options
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 10:47:02 AM
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Any Power Rankings you all come up with are fine by me! :) Be sure to share some of the posts on our Facebook Vassal Group! :)
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 10:56:04 AM
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Nope! you are absolutely bottom tier. My rankings are pure. Performance based. I can not justify moving you up when you performed so low. You'll just have to improve your performance next week if you want to move up
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 11:05:52 AM
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Officially, strength of schedule does factor into rankings, but obviously we don't know who anyone will play in future rounds.

Obviously round 1 is completely random pairings, and round 2 is fairly random within the winners playing winners and those with a first round loss playing likewise (with one exception in the middle sometimes)

FYI -

Via the official floor rules:

In the event of multiple players being tied for match points the following shall be used to determine the final standings:
1. Total Wins-The player with the most wins.
2. Head to Head Matchups – The player who has won any head to head matchups would be ahead of the loser in a head to head matchup.
3. SOS 1- The players strength of schedule minus the player's worst win.
4. SOS 2- As 3, factoring only the defeated players.
5. SOS 3-The players full strength of schedule
6. Roll Off-tied players will roll a D20, highest roll placing above the rest.


We've never made it to the roll off luckily.

As far as I know - the same procedure is used throughout the tournament for pairings (but only if
You use the official software.) Many TOs just make the initial parings, and then those tied with tournament points get paired down the list, making sure nobody has played before. That method is a little more random, but frankly it's all pretty random, and it only truly must be calculated at the end of Swiss, especially if there is not a clear break between who makes the final 4 (or 6) and who doesn't.

Personally I think record should be first, but the powers that be think playing faster is more important than winning (in a scenario where one has a better record but less tournament points.) So this is the system we have. It's not a perfect system, but at the very least it factors in head to head (which it never did in the past) which was crazy sauce. You could be tied in record and tournament points with someone you beat head to head and still get bumped out of the playoffs before.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 11:13:36 AM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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shmi15 wrote:
Nope! you are absolutely bottom tier. My rankings are pure. Performance based. I can not justify moving you up when you performed so low. You'll just have to improve your performance next week if you want to move up


It has a very weak attachment to performance based. Example opening of NBA
The Rockets lose to the warriors say by 12

The next day the Miami Heat beat the Magic by say 7.

Should we put the Heat and Magic above the Rockets?

of course not. That would be silly.

This is why things like who you played, the squad you played, the way it was played all are a part of a power ranking.

say whatever you want about my ranking. you are just being lazy.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 11:25:07 AM
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Oh and to be clear, I think the Power Ranking idea is an interesting one, as long as everyone understands that it has no bearing on tournament ranking.
Darth_Frenchy
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:26:44 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2017
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Oh and to be clear, I think the Power Ranking idea is an interesting one, as long as everyone understands that it has no bearing on tournament ranking.

+1
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:09:26 PM
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Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,290
jen'ari wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
Nope! you are absolutely bottom tier. My rankings are pure. Performance based. I can not justify moving you up when you performed so low. You'll just have to improve your performance next week if you want to move up


It has a very weak attachment to performance based. Example opening of NBA
The Rockets lose to the warriors say by 12

The next day the Miami Heat beat the Magic by say 7.

Should we put the Heat and Magic above the Rockets?

of course not. That would be silly.

This is why things like who you played, the squad you played, the way it was played all are a part of a power ranking.

say whatever you want about my ranking. you are just being lazy.



My Criteria was as followed.
1st. Most total Points (1 point loss, 2 point win, 3 point win)
2nd. I viewed Record
3rd. I looked at how many points each squad had scored during their game (gambit)

Unfortunately, their are no other things to look at. You can say squad match ups. But everyone has only played once. This isn't a list of which squads I personally think are the best in this particular order. This is a list of squads, who are currently ranked in this order based on 3 things. Its strictly performance based. Its not looking at matchups, its not looking at another squad forfeiting before the game is actually over. Its based on physcal results. Those being. Wins. Tournament Points. Then total gambit collected. This game is about collecting gambit, Not looking good on Bloo Milk Woot
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:13:51 PM
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We only have 2 games remaining correct? DarthRattlehead vs Deaths Baine, and ATM vs Flying Arrow?

Was Kezza ever officially entered? Did he get the bye week?
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:35:40 PM
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Kez got the Bye Week.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:42:21 PM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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shmi15 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
Nope! you are absolutely bottom tier. My rankings are pure. Performance based. I can not justify moving you up when you performed so low. You'll just have to improve your performance next week if you want to move up


It has a very weak attachment to performance based. Example opening of NBA
The Rockets lose to the warriors say by 12

The next day the Miami Heat beat the Magic by say 7.

Should we put the Heat and Magic above the Rockets?

of course not. That would be silly.

This is why things like who you played, the squad you played, the way it was played all are a part of a power ranking.

say whatever you want about my ranking. you are just being lazy.



My Criteria was as followed.
1st. Most total Points (1 point loss, 2 point win, 3 point win)
2nd. I viewed Record
3rd. I looked at how many points each squad had scored during their game (gambit)

Unfortunately, their are no other things to look at. You can say squad match ups. But everyone has only played once. This isn't a list of which squads I personally think are the best in this particular order. This is a list of squads, who are currently ranked in this order based on 3 things. Its strictly performance based. Its not looking at matchups, its not looking at another squad forfeiting before the game is actually over. Its based on physcal results. Those being. Wins. Tournament Points. Then total gambit collected. This game is about collecting gambit, Not looking good on Bloo Milk Woot

Right so using those criteria on October 19th
If the rockets lost to the warriors by 12. And the heat beat the magic by 7 then the rankings would be.
Warriors
Heat
Magic
Rockets

Performance based means how you perform against a certain opponent. Technically if you win a game on someone else's map that should help the power ranking as well. You have to plug in the opponents performance into your performance as well.
If I win 250 to 190 is that better than someone else winning 202 to 37?
I would definitely say no.
That performance is not better by numbers. The difference in points is a big deal.
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:47:07 PM
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Posts: 564
Who cares how Richard chooses to do his Rankings? Let's not derail this thread with discussing the merits of Richards Power Rankings.
Naarkon
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:54:56 PM
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Location: Wisconsin
shmi15 wrote:
We only have 2 games remaining correct? DarthRattlehead vs Deaths Baine, and ATM vs Flying Arrow?

Was Kezza ever officially entered? Did he get the bye week?


Kezza got the bye, but he also is not registered.
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:57:52 PM
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theultrastar wrote:
Who cares how Richard chooses to do his Rankings? Let's not derail this thread with discussing the merits of Richards Power Rankings.



But I am having more fun with this !
shmi15
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 1:58:24 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,290
Naarkon wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
We only have 2 games remaining correct? DarthRattlehead vs Deaths Baine, and ATM vs Flying Arrow?

Was Kezza ever officially entered? Did he get the bye week?


Kezza got the bye, but he also is not registered.



So Kezza is just not in this tournament? And there is no bye then correct?
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 2:03:54 PM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
shmi15 wrote:
theultrastar wrote:
Who cares how Richard chooses to do his Rankings? Let's not derail this thread with discussing the merits of Richards Power Rankings.



But I am having more fun with this !


What is your ranking ultrastar?

I am too.
Discussing power ranking is a worthwhile endeavor. I never understand this derail the thread thing? We are on here talking about stuff right?
It is related to the event at hand

I can be kyp b. and you can be Stephen s.

The reason I care is because I feel that the formula is flawed and could present a more accurate ranking
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 2:17:20 PM
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Who cares if it is flawed? It's Richards opinion.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 2:24:52 PM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
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theultrastar wrote:
Who cares if it is flawed? It's Richards opinion.


I don't really care if he keeps a flawed position. But I care enough about the merit of the conversation to discuss it.
Why do you care if I care?

You could easily just be quiet. I am having fun with it. Richard is having fun with it. You could have fun as well.
Heaven knows you are not going to have fun playing that squad you choose (thuglife 2.0)

But really. Power ranking is fun. Discussing others opinions is fun
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 3:05:17 PM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
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Opponent has not answered my question about when to play. And I do not have a chance now before the end of this round
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 5:00:15 PM
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Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 564
jen'ari wrote:
theultrastar wrote:
Who cares if it is flawed? It's Richards opinion.


I don't really care if he keeps a flawed position. But I care enough about the merit of the conversation to discuss it.
Why do you care if I care?

You could easily just be quiet. I am having fun with it. Richard is having fun with it. You could have fun as well.
Heaven knows you are not going to have fun playing that squad you choose (thuglife 2.0)

But really. Power ranking is fun. Discussing others opinions is fun


I'm so glad that you don't really care if he keeps a flawed position. Maybe now you can let it go. So when there is real discussion on here about the tournament and such, we don't have to tread through 6 pages of your position on Richard's power rankings, vs his thought on yours or his defense of his. Sprinkled in with my comments saying "Hey guys there is this tournament going on lets not trash the thread up".

I will answer your question that you posed to me with a question of my own. Why do you care if I care that you care?

Also I'm glad you are having fun. In all seriousness though, I understand you like to have a good discussion, but maybe you should open another thread based on that topic, so we can keep the tournament discussion clean.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 5:36:30 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
theultrastar wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
theultrastar wrote:
Who cares if it is flawed? It's Richards opinion.


I don't really care if he keeps a flawed position. But I care enough about the merit of the conversation to discuss it.
Why do you care if I care?

You could easily just be quiet. I am having fun with it. Richard is having fun with it. You could have fun as well.
Heaven knows you are not going to have fun playing that squad you choose (thuglife 2.0)

But really. Power ranking is fun. Discussing others opinions is fun


I'm so glad that you don't really care if he keeps a flawed position. Maybe now you can let it go. So when there is real discussion on here about the tournament and such, we don't have to tread through 6 pages of your position on Richard's power rankings, vs his thought on yours or his defense of his. Sprinkled in with my comments saying "Hey guys there is this tournament going on lets not trash the thread up".

I will answer your question that you posed to me with a question of my own. Why do you care if I care that you care?

Also I'm glad you are having fun. In all seriousness though, I understand you like to have a good discussion, but maybe you should open another thread based on that topic, so we can keep the tournament discussion clean.


i dont actually care. if you dont answer my questions i lose no sleep over it.

a discussion is a discussion. the thread title is actually
fall vassal tournament DISCUSSION

This is why we left the other thread is so that we can discuss things in this thread. See Shmi's first post.

In all seriousness though, if I want to have a discussion I think the most appropriate place is in the Discussion thread.
I mean c'mon Ultrastar, we literally already left a thread so as not to "trash that thread"

you still haven't answered what your power rankings would be. That is a great way to get us "back onto the topic of the tournament".


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