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Fall Vassal Tournament Discussion Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:41:44 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.



People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected



With the game locked how can anyone be sure that what they say happened happened? I am not accusing them of cheating but if you can just lock a game during a tournament then what's to prevent cheating....our sense of honor? Yeah I don't trust that at all.


If no one watched the game at all with an unlocked room, how would you know?


not really the same, everyone HAD a chance to watch an unlocked game. this is completely different people tried to watch it and it was locked.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:44:49 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
So I'm trying to shame people now? Nope, not buying that one. When we were talking about this tournament before it started, there was a lot of conversation about people watching. Unlocked rooms were assumed...no reason to think otherwise, given the nature of the conversations. I asked the question the way I did because I want clarity on this issue. It is NOT fair to jump in and watch people's games then lock your own. If this tournament is giving you anxiety Matt, then I don't think I want to participate in it. A game with you isn't worth giving you even more stress in your real life struggles.

Matt is a friend and a fellow Christian who has hit a rough patch. I support him in his struggles and my wife and I have prayed for him. Still, this is a tournament. Everyone should be on a level playing field. Locked rooms should not be a part of it, especially if you regularly observe others playing but lock your own room. If locked rooms are suddenly ok, then I'm out. This has to be fun, not cutthroat stuff. That's how the game grows.



in solidarity with Darth Jim if locked rooms are allowed I will also be out.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:49:41 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I obviously missed this conversation (blasted early bedtime), but I want to put in my two cents. I don't see a need for Vassal rounds to be observed, and it makes me uncomfortable. Frankly, I'm pretty bad at Vassal, and it's embarrassing for someone other than my opponent to see me whiff my way through it. I can have problems with anxiety, as well, which are easier to deal with one on one than with a group watching. And I don't honestly know how much value there is in watching a lot of Vassal games, which are conducted over Skype or phone call, when all you witness is the pieces moving around the board. If you were in a live tournament situation and people came over to watch and you were uncomfortable, are we saying that real life people wouldn't respect a request to go do something else? I hope our community has more respect for each other than that.

Anyway, I know you guys decided to wait for Naarkon to decide the policy going forward, so my comments are pretty much moot. Just felt like I needed to say something.




no you shouldn't be able to request people not watch you play at a tournament that they paid money, travel expenses, etc to be a part of. if you want that then don't go to a tournament.


Edit**** as long as they are being quiet and respectful that is.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:49:42 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
If you were in a live tournament situation and people came over to watch and you were uncomfortable, are we saying that real life people wouldn't respect a request to go do something else? I hope our community has more respect for each other than that.


I had the great pleasure of watching your game against Naarkon. It was a fun time for me. I enjoyed watching a good player play unique vong.

If you would have let me know that I was not welcome I would have left without any ill feelings. I want to be able to watch your game and be apart of mini's happenings, but if you are stressed I would put that above my desire to watch.

As a human being I respect your request, but I would also like the time of day from you requesting it.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 5:29:56 AM
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I don't think spry was looking for an unfair advantage. I don't think Jim was trying to shame anyone. I can see both sides' arguments. Ultimately, Naarkon is running the tournament and he'll make a decision for how it should be going forward. No reason for anyone to quit the tournament or be upset.
spryguy1981
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 6:04:55 AM
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I had no idea this would cause any sort of a stink. Quite frankly I locked the room because of who my opponent was in this round. When you play this game, there is already some sort of tension that goes into the match. The games I have played with Etienne have been some of the most intense games I have ever played, ranked right up there with Weeks, Graham, TINT, some of my games with Jason, Bronson, and Bryan a few times. The tension of those games often times causes me to get a headache and when you add people to the mix to watch sometimes it brings about some minor shaking for me. I remember being a pile of anxiety when I played for the championship in 2011, and often times matches I played in Top 4's.

I think it's worth noting that Etienne essentially asked me not to hover at GenCon when he played for the championship this year and I acceded to his request. I think also its worth noting that no one actually asked me if they could watch the game last night of the ones who were on Vassal. Shmi asked for updates but never said he wanted to watch, Jim didn't mention wanting to watch either, he just asked about why the room was locked. If people had asked I might have been a little lenient and invited people into the room. I felt though that given the circumstances and everything going on, that locking the room for this game would be better for me from a health standpoint. I'd probably lock the room if I played Bronson too because of how intense the games can be. Its never been meant as a slight to anyone, but moreso for my mental well-being.

It's also worth noting that my first round game against Caedus the room was not locked and people could come in and watch. I think it should be ok to lock the rooms for matches that could have a negative impact on a persons health. Maybe put something in there about getting Naarkon's approval prior to a match to lock the room and go with that. I certainly dont want to offend, but if I have to choose between allowing my anxiety to spike and playing with an open room, or locking a room and not dealing with the spike, I'm going to lock the room, because it's just a better option for me. And if I am required to play all my matches with open rooms and it causes my anxiety to spike or to become an issue then I would likely drop because I refuse to allow myself to go down those roads again.

Edit; Not that anyone would actually do this, but if people are mentioning unfair advantages, whats to stop someone who is watching from helping the opponent by giving them advice and moves simply because they don't like a player or a squad. Again I don't think anyone would do this, just as I don't think anyone would lock the room just to cheat also, but its worth putting out there.
Naarkon
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 6:10:24 AM
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I am busy this morning, but I will have the new pairings and my thoughts on locked rooms up this afternoon. I want to read everyone's posts here and make sure I don't do anything hasty.
UrbanShmi
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 7:03:25 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
If you were in a live tournament situation and people came over to watch and you were uncomfortable, are we saying that real life people wouldn't respect a request to go do something else? I hope our community has more respect for each other than that.


I had the great pleasure of watching your game against Naarkon. It was a fun time for me. I enjoyed watching a good player play unique vong.

If you would have let me know that I was not welcome I would have left without any ill feelings. I want to be able to watch your game and be apart of mini's happenings, but if you are stressed I would put that above my desire to watch.

As a human being I respect your request, but I would also like the time of day from you requesting it.


You're right. If I'm not comfortable, it's on me to say no. But sometimes it's hard to turn down what seems like a reasonable request for seemingly insubstantial reasons. You had no reason to think I wasn't okay with your watching, and I'm not blaming you for that at all. Just saying that pressure can come from a lot of places, including ourselves.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 7:54:51 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
So I'm trying to shame people now?


Nobody has accused you of that Jim. Though I disagree with your stance, you presented your viewpoint respectfully. Where it went from there is a different story.

Darth_Jim wrote:
When we were talking about this tournament before it started, there was a lot of conversation about people watching. Unlocked rooms were assumed...no reason to think otherwise, given the nature of the conversations.


Was everyone in the tournament involved in this conversation? Did everyone give consent? I was not involved in the conversation, I did not agree to it, and I suspect it was the minority, not the majority that took part in this conversation.

Darth_Jim wrote:
It is NOT fair to jump in and watch people's games then lock your own.


There is perhaps some validity to this.

I have not watched a single second of anyone else's game in this tournament

Darth_Jim wrote:
If this tournament is giving you anxiety


Huge difference between getting anxiety from playing the game, and anxiety from having people watch you play.

Anxiety while playing the game will happen, based simply on the game itsself. Who doesn't get some anxiety during a tense match? That is a part of the game that everyone signed up for. You have to expect that possibility anytime you play in a tournament.

However, that is entirely different from the anxiety produced by being watched playing. It compounds the innate anxiety within a game itsself, with something not expressly outlined before sign-ups for the tournament that is technically outside of the scope of the games themselves. It has to by nature be purely vouluntry.




I also think it's only fair to have it be known that Darth Jim and I played our game in a locked room, and it wasn't an issue for anyone.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 8:08:19 AM
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spryguy1981 wrote:
I had no idea this would cause any sort of a stink. Quite frankly I locked the room because of who my opponent was in this round. When you play this game, there is already some sort of tension that goes into the match. The games I have played with Etienne have been some of the most intense games I have ever played, ranked right up there with Weeks, Graham, TINT, some of my games with Jason, Bronson, and Bryan a few times. The tension of those games often times causes me to get a headache and when you add people to the mix to watch sometimes it brings about some minor shaking for me. I remember being a pile of anxiety when I played for the championship in 2011, and often times matches I played in Top 4's.

I think it's worth noting that Etienne essentially asked me not to hover at GenCon when he played for the championship this year and I acceded to his request. I think also its worth noting that no one actually asked me if they could watch the game last night of the ones who were on Vassal. Shmi asked for updates but never said he wanted to watch, Jim didn't mention wanting to watch either, he just asked about why the room was locked. If people had asked I might have been a little lenient and invited people into the room. I felt though that given the circumstances and everything going on, that locking the room for this game would be better for me from a health standpoint. I'd probably lock the room if I played Bronson too because of how intense the games can be. Its never been meant as a slight to anyone, but moreso for my mental well-being.

It's also worth noting that my first round game against Caedus the room was not locked and people could come in and watch. I think it should be ok to lock the rooms for matches that could have a negative impact on a persons health. Maybe put something in there about getting Naarkon's approval prior to a match to lock the room and go with that. I certainly dont want to offend, but if I have to choose between allowing my anxiety to spike and playing with an open room, or locking a room and not dealing with the spike, I'm going to lock the room, because it's just a better option for me. And if I am required to play all my matches with open rooms and it causes my anxiety to spike or to become an issue then I would likely drop because I refuse to allow myself to go down those roads again.

Edit; Not that anyone would actually do this, but if people are mentioning unfair advantages, whats to stop someone who is watching from helping the opponent by giving them advice and moves simply because they don't like a player or a squad. Again I don't think anyone would do this, just as I don't think anyone would lock the room just to cheat also, but its worth putting out there.


Spryguy, this is competition and quite frankly if it is causing you personal harm you should probably not play.
This is a serious thing if you are getting headaches and shaking. But to act like the rest of us have to just buck down and be ok with it is not cool either. There are no accommodations in competition. I know you know this because you take every advantage you can. This is no secret.
Even locking the door gives you an advantage. (just like r7)

if an open vassal room is causing your anxiety to spike you simply should not be playing. It is as frank as that. Or you should recognize that you are going to have to deal with potential observers, prepare yourself for it, and move on. But this is a public game full of a public community. I like when you are in the room watching me play. I like having observers, I like joining in on the fun with others. It makes the tournament more fun for me and, I would imagine, others that have the time to watch.

That should not be taken away. We are a community, a team. If you have a personal reason to ask others to not be around than ask and they will most likely respond respectfully. But to be barred from the start when someone was looking to enjoy the game is rude.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 8:18:59 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:


Darth_Jim wrote:
If this tournament is giving you anxiety


Huge difference between getting anxiety from playing the game, and anxiety from having people watch you play.

Anxiety while playing the game will happen, based simply on the game itsself. Who doesn't get some anxiety during a tense match? That is a part of the game that everyone signed up for. You have to expect that possibility anytime you play in a tournament.

However, that is entirely different from the anxiety produced by being watched playing. It compounds the innate anxiety within a game itsself, with something not expressly outlined before sign-ups for the tournament that is technically outside of the scope of the games themselves. It has to by nature be purely vouluntry.

it is not different since it is a public game.
next we are going to have Spryguy enter a regional and play his game in a different, locked room and than lock the vassal room?
I mean, the only reasonable route is for Spryguy to face his anxiety. That is the nature of this game. and the nature of dealing with anxiety. Like I have said before we can help Spryguy with this. Butterflies are not a bad thing. I am sure he is telling the truth in that viewers impact his anxiety more. But the question is: does this mean that others should not be allowed to watch?

If something is not expressly outlined before the tournament what makes you think that you are allowed to lock a door?
You can use the exact same logic to reverse the criteria.
BUT it was stated that people would like to know when games where so it could be watched, what wasn't stated was that some people might want their door locked.
Precedent has proof for unlocked doors while locked doors was never a part of the discussion anywhere.

TimmerB123 wrote:

I also think it's only fair to have it be known that Darth Jim and I played our game in a locked room, and it wasn't an issue for anyone.

It would have been a large issue for me if I or someone else wanted to watch and mentioned the locked door and was turned away.
UrbanShmi
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 8:47:08 AM
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I would argue that the comfort level of the players involved (who might not want to be observed for any number of valid reasons) should usually take precedence over the ability of people not involved in the game to "enjoy themselves" by watching it. I've been in tourneys where it was understood the TO would be stopping in to observe matches, and that was no big deal. But an audience there specifically to be entertained by you when you weren't intending to be entertainment is a different thing (or, I guess, to learn from you when you're just there to play a game). If you like or don't mind having people watch, good for you. But that shouldn't mean a free pass to everyone else's games. The preferences of the two people actually playing the game should be respected. And if they prefer to have the room locked rather than deal with requests to watch the game, I don't have a problem with that.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 8:55:45 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I would argue that the comfort level of the players involved (who might not want to be observed for any number of valid reasons) should usually take precedence over the ability of people not involved in the game to "enjoy themselves" by watching it. I've been in tourneys where it was understood the TO would be stopping in to observe matches, and that was no big deal. But an audience there specifically to be entertained by you when you weren't intending to be entertainment is a different thing (or, I guess, to learn from you when you're just there to play a game). If you like or don't mind having people watch, good for you. But that shouldn't mean a free pass to everyone else's games. The preferences of the two people actually playing the game should be respected. And if they prefer to have the room locked rather than deal with requests to watch the game, I don't have a problem with that.


The problem is that this is a public game and should be a public game. it is a TOURNAMENT!
viewing your opponent play has been around in every form, everywhere. It allows the game to be open and transparent. even chess matches and golf and pool tournaments are open to the public.

What you are saying is that we should go against that precedent. Which would take a rules overhaul.
Sorry to say it but if you are in a tournament and dont like others watching you, too bad.
It is the nature of competition and it is a factor of competition.
It is not about what I like as much as it is about the idea of tournament play in general.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:00:38 AM
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Bro... we are living in the give em a trophy for showing up era.... I mean this is like telling a sports team, sorry you can't watch their LIVE game on television, or nope you can't use game film... lol. I am actually sad for humanity when people are so weak they want to make concessions during a tournament.... I just don't understand people anymore.

could you imagine Paulo saying...hey guys we aren't game planning for Lindsey Wilson because it makes them uncomfortable HAHAHAHHAHA
UrbanShmi
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:09:29 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Bro... we are living in the give em a trophy for showing up era.... I mean this is like telling a sports team, sorry you can't watch their LIVE game on television, or nope you can't use game film... lol. I am actually sad for humanity when people are so weak they want to make concessions during a tournament.... I just don't understand people anymore.

could you imagine Paulo saying...hey guys we aren't game planning for Lindsey Wilson because it makes them uncomfortable HAHAHAHHAHA


No one's looking for a participation trophy. Vassal is different from live tournaments in several important ways, and one of them is the ability to set up private games. To think that that functionality will be usable in a Vassal tourney seems to me to be at least as reasonable as assume all games should be open because that's how they are IRL.

And btw, knowing your limits and enforcing them is not weakness. It takes a lot of strength and courage. I'll be happy to expound if you want.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:16:29 AM
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UrbanShmi wrote:
[quote=Deaths_Baine]Bro... we are living in the give em a trophy for showing up era.... I mean this is like telling a sports team, sorry you can't watch their LIVE game on television, or nope you can't use game film... lol. I am actually sad for humanity when people are so weak they want to make concessions during a tournament.... I just don't understand people anymore.

could you imagine Paulo saying...hey guys we aren't game planning for Lindsey Wilson because it makes them uncomfortable HAHAHAHHAHA


No one's looking for a participation trophy. Vassal is different from live tournaments in several important ways, and one of them is the ability to set up private games. To think that that functionality will be usable in a Vassal tourney seems to me to be at least as reasonable as assume all games should be open because that's how they are IRL.

And btw, knowing your limits and enforcing them is not weakness. It takes a lot of strength and courage. I'll be happy to expound if you want.[/quote]


forcing others to give concessions during a tournament to you is not strength. I like spry, heck he spent the night at my house and is welcome anytime for w/e the reasons, but this is a tournament with winners and losers and some people are right to take this as a high level competition and I just don't understand why those competitive people want to make concessions and allow someone to have an advantage, and yes playing your game in secret and not allowing people is in secret. what if jim could have learned how to beat spry by watching the game? you took that right away from him... its pathetic.
spryguy1981
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:16:29 AM
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Craig, and anyone else in that camp, I really hope that your not so callous and naive as to think that the way I cope with my anxiety is inherently wrong. I chose the safest path as a coping mechanism. I locked a room big blubbering deal, it's not the end of the world, get over it and move on.

I honestly hope you NEVER have to go through the stuff I've had to deal with in the last 2 years because its not something I would wish on my worst enemy. This game has generally been an outlet for me and allows me to be able to provide a distraction, but on that note, there are certain people that I play against that bring out the worst of my anxiety. Through no fault of their own, it's just the way their games are played. It just so happens that Frenchy falls into that category. I feel like everytime we have played I end up coming away more stressed that when I started playing. Its because of the nature of the game. Having people watching a game between me and him enhances that anxiety, its the same way with Ultrastar, Weeks, and others. The intensity ramps up in those games and causes me headaches generally, much like this whole discussion is now.

I generally don't lock rooms, look back over the last 4 years of the Vassal regional and I'd be surprised if anyone could identify a time when I locked a room or they wanted to lock a room. But I lock a room one time for a game and get crucified for it, yet no one looks at the why, or the struggles of the week that might have led up to that moment, or my enhanced desire to lock the room. I want to say I'm done defending myself and my decision but I'm sure someone will come along and extend the thread more forcing me into defense mode again, but the bottom line is. I chose to lock the room, my opponent did not voice any concerns or ask me why it was locked or to unlock it, neither person on Vassal asked me to actually watch the game and therefore I take the responsibility for locking the room, but there's also something to be said for those not asking if they could watch.

I chose to lock the room, I shared personal details as to why I locked the room, now lets drop it and move on with this tournament.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:28:06 AM
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spryguy1981 wrote:
Craig, and anyone else in that camp, I really hope that your not so callous and naive as to think that the way I cope with my anxiety is inherently wrong. I chose the safest path as a coping mechanism. I locked a room big blubbering deal, it's not the end of the world, get over it and move on.

I honestly hope you NEVER have to go through the stuff I've had to deal with in the last 2 years because its not something I would wish on my worst enemy. This game has generally been an outlet for me and allows me to be able to provide a distraction, but on that note, there are certain people that I play against that bring out the worst of my anxiety. Through no fault of their own, it's just the way their games are played. It just so happens that Frenchy falls into that category. I feel like everytime we have played I end up coming away more stressed that when I started playing. Its because of the nature of the game. Having people watching a game between me and him enhances that anxiety, its the same way with Ultrastar, Weeks, and others. The intensity ramps up in those games and causes me headaches generally, much like this whole discussion is now.

I generally don't lock rooms, look back over the last 4 years of the Vassal regional and I'd be surprised if anyone could identify a time when I locked a room or they wanted to lock a room. But I lock a room one time for a game and get crucified for it, yet no one looks at the why, or the struggles of the week that might have led up to that moment, or my enhanced desire to lock the room. I want to say I'm done defending myself and my decision but I'm sure someone will come along and extend the thread more forcing me into defense mode again, but the bottom line is. I chose to lock the room, my opponent did not voice any concerns or ask me why it was locked or to unlock it, neither person on Vassal asked me to actually watch the game and therefore I take the responsibility for locking the room, but there's also something to be said for those not asking if they could watch.

I chose to lock the room, I shared personal details as to why I locked the room, now lets drop it and move on with this tournament.

Spry get professional help, they will tell you that the safest route is hardly ever the right route.

Also, I have already stated multiple times that if you request that I leave the room, I would respect your request.

That is not the issue.

The issue is the ruling that locked doors should be allowed in a competitive tournament. Even as an accommodation with those struggling with anxiety.

It is a help, its like giving someone a benefit that others do not have. Where is my "lifeline"?

is it harsh? possibly, but competition is always harsh.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:29:48 AM
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I find it hard to believe this is an issue on either side.

Locking a room is obviously an advantage.

Watching a game is obviously an advantage.

You could easily make a case to ban either one. Nobody cared to weigh the pros and cons before because quite frankly the advantage isn't that great. Naarkon will make a ruling one way or the other and hopefully we can just move on after that.

a. All games open
b. All games locked
c. Games are locked if either player wants it locked
d. Games are open if either player wants it open

I really don't care what the ruling is. I hope we don't have to debate it anymore once he posts it. Naarkon did the work of organizing this so whatever he says lets just thank him and move on.

I guess so far we've been operating under (c) above. Or maybe (d)? But perhaps not everyone realized it? I never even thought about it. In any case, once we have a ruling we'll all be on level ground.
spryguy1981
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 9:45:55 AM
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Craig I've been getting professional help for a while and one of the things Ive been instructed to do is to minimize things that could trigger possible additional anxiety, exactly what I did in locking the room. The other is take my daily meds which I also do. So for you to assume I haven't gotten any help is ridiculous. If you had seen where I was 6 months ago and where I am now you'd realize that holy S**t he has gotten help he's far different than he was then. He's made huge strides in coping with this obnoxious disease that he's dealt with most of his adult life. I locked the room because quite simply it goes hand in hand with the things my therapist recommends in avoiding additional stressors.
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