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TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 8:41:13 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
where are lor tekka's stats?


Updated now
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 8:41:54 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
Ya she is awesome. (Cough* but that lightsaber should be a melee attack)


She? Are you talking about Venku? Definitely a male
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 8:45:03 AM
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I think Booster should be fun (though I am biased), and I am looking forward to Bo-Katan Kryze
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 9:53:41 AM
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So I'm assuming Wager also suppresses Anticipation and Sense the future as well eh? And probably also master tactician and tactician eh? Would be interesting to see a list of abilities it affects. Either way I'll be the one to say it, I'm normally a positive guy but I really don't like this piece. For a few reasons:
- first and most personally biased reason (since I love Reserves) He completely and in my opinion unfairly shuts down reserves, which aside from one Republic build, is actually one of the weakest squad types.
- cheap enough to fit in the Lobot toolbox makes him accessible to counter any reserves team or initiative dependent builds.
- adds two fairly wordy new abilities to the game on a cheap piece. I think we need to be going away from that line of thinking of having one piece counter 5 things or introduce a boatload of new complex abilities. I know most of us are pretty pro and can adapt to the new rules but I'm the only one from my large playgroup on bloomilk and that follows the game closely. And while my group enjoys the game they are put of by many new pieces that have multiple complex abilities/commander effects, especially when they are this cheap. As much as I love the Rebels TV show characters, the player that brought a Rebels theme squad for the regional couldn't keep track of half of the abilities, and I'm sure it will be similar with the Rogue One subset as well.
Occasionally it works for large point BHC and epic characters that take up half or more of your squad, but trying to track 5-10 sub 20-30 point pieces that do ten different things each needlessly complicates the game and makes it difficult for me to teach new players or keep current semi-casual players interested.

Anyways that's my rant and I'm very excited for the rest of this set. But for the sake of those that don't take it as seriously as we do, keep it simple please. Only add a new ability if it needs to exist and nothing else can be settled on. And if that's the case then just let it have that, see Lok Durd for an example of how to introduce something new but keep it simple. And keeping the special abilities down, I think you should have max two existing abilities/powers/commander effects if you 10 points or less, 3 for 20, 4 for 30, etc... But even focus on just making a character focus on one thing/angle/boost instead of doing everything.

Alright second rant over and time to praise some awesome design. New post for that
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 10:09:35 AM
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Alright happy post:

Zen is fantastic, almost to much going on but a true jedi or what they should be.

In a similar vein Darth Baras is super cool, with lots happening but excellent CE and I like the idea of being able to give the holocrons different "personalities".

That Grapple droid should be fun to run with some bodyguard droids and Grievous!

Death Troopers and Krennic are awesome together and would make for a cool thematic build.

Rogue One crew should also be a cool build similar to current Rebels show sub-faction


All in all I honestly think my favourite piece this set is Jacen in amphistaff armour. Vong warriors in the NR is awesome!

Close second favourites are Viull for a Vong shooter and Bo-Katan for being another great Death Watch boost.

(And I would really like to see infantry turret find its way into a huge droid ability/CE, such a cool ability)
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 10:28:20 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Vong warriors in the NR is awesome!


huh?
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 10:29:28 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
rant


FYI - this was the original wording for what became Wager:

Quote:
Each round, after initiative is determined, you may choose one Unique ally. That ally is considered activated this round, and your opponent's initiative check becomes exactly 14, suppressing any abilities or commander effects that modify initiative.


That nerfed reserves 100%.

We changed it so it only nerfs immediate reserves half the time.


It was much more simple and straightforward. We changed it, and in doing so it became much more complicated.

Sincerely - we changed it with you in mind.

(shrug)

Can't please everyone
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 10:40:43 AM
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Force powers fall under abilities?
I thought it meant abilities like Master tact and recon, not force powers.
Shrouded says abilities as well. that also means no force powers?

Does lightsaber protection and protection 2 last for all attacks?

So you are going to double twin with opportunist. I use lightsaber protection 2 and only take 10 from all 4 attacks?
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 10:56:45 AM
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jen'ari wrote:

Does lightsaber protection and protection 2 last for all attacks?

So you are going to double twin with opportunist. I use lightsaber protection 2 and only take 10 from all 4 attacks?


Yes for the remainder of the turn. So you could choose to take the first part of the twin normal (maybe wanting to save FP for something, then if they roll a crit on the second part use it and take reduced damage on the second part)
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:04:27 AM
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Awesome and thanks for answering questions haha.

General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:24:53 AM
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That would definitely have been worse for sure, as is it's still pretty brutal though, 10% chance of cancelling reserves entirely. But that's barely the problem, worse is shutting down things like Recon, anticipation, Smuggler's Luck, and sense the future, all of which reserve teams critically depend on to even pretend to be competitive. Other than that one Republic build it was suicide to bring reserves in a tournament. Going on a chance, slow to build up a team, and weakness to early strikes especially in a timed game all balanced the potential reward of being able to bring in more fodder troops that you don't even have a decent CE for because you spent everything trying to increase your odds. They were a huge challenge to play, super dice dependent and yet enjoyable in the random chance gambling aspect.

The one thing they had going was the number of rolls, which is now reduced to one, every single turn. For the low cost of activating salacious crumb... I don't see how it was warranted to nerf reserves into unplayable when they were already not competitive (again as a whole not a single republic team, also this piece was in development before that regional). I would have much rather taken a nerf to Krell then to have an entire style of play wiped out by an 18 point Lobot auto-include. Reserves as a playstyle are officially dead.
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:51:13 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:

The one thing they had going was the number of rolls, which is now reduced to one, every single turn. For the low cost of activating salacious crumb... I don't see how it was warranted to nerf reserves into unplayable when they were already not competitive (again as a whole not a single republic team, also this piece was in development before that regional). I would have much rather taken a nerf to Krell then to have an entire style of play wiped out by an 18 point Lobot auto-include. Reserves as a playstyle are officially dead.



if it stops anticipation, sense the future and all that other stuff. Who can say it is only a soft counter to reserves?

I also highly agree that it kills a playstyle. A playstyle that has no need to be killed other than "oh designers screwed up so instead of dealing with it through the community, lets just design something else to hide our screw up"
Another case of the 'v-set team' taking things into their own hands without thinking if it is warranted. A design team should not have the ability to strongly hurt a play style just because they want to.
The community at large gets screwed. I said it before. If reserves are even a small counter to people running out act and smash than it should have been kept around until it proved as an issue as an NPE.

It is hard to be apart of the community and kind of be at the mercy of those designing without ever a chance to actually be a part of something. I said it before as well. To "get in" you kind of have to "buddy buddy" which I suck at doing.

So the community just sits around and waits and adapts...

I said it before as well. The design team should be CHECKED and balanced before pieces come out to ensure liberties are not being taken.

A very special group should do that. My personal 3 votes would be for Deaths_bane, Darth_Jim, and kezzamachine.
Not as if it will happen, nor would it be up to the community at large...
Echo24
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:55:45 AM
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jen'ari wrote:

if it stops anticipation, sense the future and all that other stuff. Who can say it is only a soft counter to reserves?


Just for the record, "abilities" means Special Abilities and Force Powers (I know, it's confusing because of the existence of Force Abilities which ARE Force Powers but also have their own rules). So yes, it stops everything.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:13:49 PM
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Unkar doesn't stop anticipation, StF or Recon?
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:20:04 PM
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I got to agree with you Jen'ari at least on the first bit. It's beyond a soft or hard counter. It literally shuts it down completely. Voxyn Queen, Dooku/Wat, Vader Agent of Evil/Seventh Sister, Rebel Kazdan, Pong/Kazdan will never be played again and might as well not exist.

As far as I see it in the game there is:

Rock (beatstick(s), counter direct damage)
Paper (swarm, counter Bastilla/disruptive)
Scissors (strafe, counter buzz Droids)
Specialty Heroes (Rebels, Rouge One, sub faction 5-8 characters mixed group Counter: Bounty hunter/assassin)
Anti-force (vong/Ysalmari, counter ranged/Vong hunter/vongsense)
Force (OR/SITH/pure powers usually burst effects, includes Bastilla, counter: see above)
Ranged (similar to heroes, usually GMA/Twin/double/triple, counter anti-ranged)
Anti-ranged (formally called melee, but these days with Obikin and others like them blushing back at range, counter direct damage, self-destruct)
Super Stealth (ninjas, usually ranged, counter force heavy teams/its a trap)
Self-destruct (bombs for life, counter: fringe anti-self destruct/Bastilla/disruptive)
Out activate-smash (hate it haha, counter: last few sets)
Huges (not doing so great, but slowly doing better, though buzz droid is another example of random nerf, counter: super stealth, Bastilla/self-destruct)
Reserves (Vong/sep/imperial/republic/rebel/fringe, a push your luck high risk/reward play-style, counter: officially nerfed, as 4 rolls a turn has become 1, so odds went from reasonable to near impossible, you would be lucky to get formally a single rounds worth of rolls in an entire game now)

If you notice above, with the exception of Bastilla, every other counter is a soft one, and usually in most cases one you have to be close to the battle to use (it's a trap, overwhelming power, disruptive, bomb disposal, ysalmari) but now a Lobot auto-include piece can hang out in the back and activate a useless unique commander or 5 point crumb to literally shut down a team. Did we not learn from Bastilla when she broke commander effect dependent teams?

I just want someone from the design team to explain to me why this piece was designed to shut down a play style? And not just my favorite one but others as well. If this guy was designed before the regional than what was he being made to counter? I don't want to drag this out and make it into a thing but, bro why? Just why man?
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:24:07 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Unkar doesn't stop anticipation, StF or Recon?

It's how it's worded right now
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:49:15 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Unkar doesn't stop anticipation, StF or Recon?

It's how it's worded right now

Quote:
Wager [Usable once per round, before rolling initiative: Choose 1 Unique ally and a single digit number; that ally is considered activated and other characters' abilities and commander effects that modify initiative are suppressed this round. Unless you roll a 1, if your opponent's initiative roll ends with the chosen number, subtract 9 from their roll; otherwise subtract 9 from your initiative roll.]


Recon, Anticipation, StF do not modify initiative. Tactician +4/+6/+8 and master tactician do. Initiative modifiers happen after these steps.ThumbsUp
Echo24
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:51:10 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
Unkar doesn't stop anticipation, StF or Recon?

It's how it's worded right now

Quote:
Wager [Usable once per round, before rolling initiative: Choose 1 Unique ally and a single digit number; that ally is considered activated and other characters' abilities and commander effects that modify initiative are suppressed this round. Unless you roll a 1, if your opponent's initiative roll ends with the chosen number, subtract 9 from their roll; otherwise subtract 9 from your initiative roll.]


Recon, Anticipation, StF do not modify initiative. Tactician +4/+6/+8 and master tactician do.


Yes they do. See the glossary definition for Never Tell Me the Odds:

Quote:
Enemy special abilities that modify initiative, such as Master Tactician and Recon, have no effect while this character is in play.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:53:51 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

if it stops anticipation, sense the future and all that other stuff. Who can say it is only a soft counter to reserves?


Just for the record, "abilities" means Special Abilities and Force Powers (I know, it's confusing because of the existence of Force Abilities which ARE Force Powers but also have their own rules). So yes, it stops everything.


Hold up. Abilities here means Force Powers? On Barada on Skiff Abilities means like ABM not Force powers like rerolls and the such. Confused.
Echo24
Posted: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:57:03 PM
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Caedus wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:

if it stops anticipation, sense the future and all that other stuff. Who can say it is only a soft counter to reserves?


Just for the record, "abilities" means Special Abilities and Force Powers (I know, it's confusing because of the existence of Force Abilities which ARE Force Powers but also have their own rules). So yes, it stops everything.


Hold up. Abilities here means Force Powers? On Barada on Skiff Abilities means like ABM not Force powers like rerolls and the such. Confused.


Haha, that's what the parenthetical was for.

"abilities" = Special Abilities and Force Powers
"Force ability" = Force Powers that specifically say they are Force abilities


Barada on Skiff says "special abilities and Force abilities".



ETA: To explain more, here are some examples:

Cunning Attack is a Special Ability and an ability
Force Push is a Force Power and an ability, but NOT a Force ability
Advanced Battle Meditation is a Force Power, an ability, AND a Force ability.
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