http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/166548/sith-frosty-con-2016 (Created: 1/31/2016 2:05 PM)
My squad was built with vong in mind, I prepared for charging Vong and Praetorite Vong Blast Bugs. About half my squad was v-set 11 pieces. Darth Zhanna w/ SSM and Darth Cognus w/ Perry, Jaq with Sith Rage, avoid defeat. Jason helped me finalize my squad on Episode 305 of SHNN. I’m a competent vong player, having made top 4 in Chicago last year with Vong. Still the Vong are a tough match and one I’m not expecting to win. I was expecting at least an honorable death.

What Joe has accomplished, what many of us gave up on, is how to marry Domain Lah warriors with Blast Bug. It’s a new and unexpected thing. The damage output of 8 lah warriors and warrior caste subcommander w/ Aggressive Negotiations (180 unpreventable damage) is overly strong. The suggestion made by Joe, and several experienced Vong players, is to raise cost a few points so you get fewer warriors. Making it more manageable for lower act squad to compete.

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/147051/adi-and-cin-2016-frosty-con-regional-winner Created: (Created: 1/31/2015 7:55 PM)
Jason said he didn’t do anything special to prepare for Frosty. He’s had this squad for a while. He was aware Vong would be there and it probably influenced his choice when he grabbed that squad box. In Jason’s squad R2D2 and Foul can launch Cin and Serra to each kill a warrior before taking on any damage. It quickly cuts Joe’s squad down to 6 warriors. Cin Drallig, can move w/ Brutal Strike & GMA Double doing 40 unpreventable damage to kill a warrior. Serra Keto can move GMA Double with Prize Tutor doing 30/30 to kill a warrior. Then with Marn, you get 4 guys with Blast Bug to harass and wear down the remaining warriors.

Other than Marn, what Jason’s squad does is specific to the Republic faction (R2 and Foul) (Cin and Serra). I think it’s difficult, if not impossible, to replicate it other factions. Two movement breakers and two beatsticks able to move and kill a domain lah warrior in a single turn... It seems unreasonable to expect players to be able to build and play squads to emulate what Jason squad does. The new v-set 11 Warb Null cant even get the job done. After my game with Joe we looked at Warb and he pointed out that he easily kills Warb too.

An average player can’t build or play at Joe’s level. It takes a player of Joe’s caliber to go up against a difficult match up and win and the Vong are going to have difficult match ups. But a lot of the things holding Vong back have been fixed by the Balance team. Vong may start winning tournaments, but that’s really not my point here at all.

Blast Bug has been out a while and have been an NPE for many players. There’s a good reason Blast Bug is not allowed in NZ melee tournaments. But now with Lah Warriors anyone could push minis and say blast bug, blast bug, blast bug, blast bug, and make low act squads disappear. The balance team should be looking at Blast Bug for the good of the game, for all the work designers have put into making lower act squads playable, and for the people who want to enjoy playing, win or lose.

+1 to what Jason said.

I saw a link to this discussion on FB, so I figured that I'd come and chime in, since I played at FrostyCon.

FrostyCon is always the first major SWM event in the USA, and the first Regional. In some sense it can partially predict or shape the meta, since it's the first chance for the new squads to shine. And if it's new and it works, then it therefore must be overpowered, right? lol

Seriously though, it's good to recognize the power of the Warriors (particularly with BB), just as it was good to recognize the power of the ERCs last year. Whether they continue to be dominant is another issue. Last year, the prevalence of Mira (with Force Sense) is what kept the ERCs in line. This year, I'm not sure what it might be that keeps the Vong in line (if anything). I played Ani-Obi and Mace (yes, big surprise!) and I figured that I had a decent chance against Joe's Vong if he didn't have the BBs...but with the BBs I knew it would be an auto-loss.

As I look at it, though, I don't think it's the Lah warriors that are the problem! Seriously. They came out before the "+4 Save Priest" and before the BB Commander. They have just 40hp, and we all know that Save 11 (armor) is not something you can rely on (unlike Save 7). They also have low attack values, and so they need to be pumped up with a lot of support. We designed them as low-hp attacker missiles that will likely die after charging in to do their thing...but if they happen to survive into the next round, then they'll have a chance to unload a bunch more damage before certainly dying that round. I think they function exactly as intended. A Cost of 10 is probably about right. And so, as Echo often says, you need to recognize that certain pieces aren't strong by themselves...we need to take into account the cost of their necessary support too.

IMHO, I think the real problem is the Save +4 effect (SO big in a faction that has a lot of save reliance). I think the +4 to saves is excellent and needed vs shooters, but I don't think it should apply to things like Avoid Defeat. Basically, I think it should be a version of Ranged Defense Expert, where you get a bonus if the person attacking you is not adjacent. That ENCOURAGES engagement...but a blanket +4 to saves is just problematic. As was mentioned, an immortal bodyguard is a real problem. BTW, I think it's probably also fine that the +4 applies to crab armor, since that is the Vong's thing...besides, it's pretty common to have plenty of 30dmg hits these days, so having reliable armor is starting to become necessary.

IMHO, I also think that the solution to the BBs is to raise the commander's cost to 22 so that you can't bring him in as a Reinforcement. As someone has said here, that allows you to completely re-shape the entire focus of your squad, and it's too powerful. Reinforcements are already powerful (hence Lobot's prevalence for a decade)...but I can't think of many other Reinforcement options that in themselves can completely re-focus your entire squad to do something (ie, direct damage) when it was originally designed to do something else entirely (attack damage). If he can't be used as a reinforcement, then you're in a situation where you have to build him into your base squad, even against squads that don't need him. The question there is whether the Vong player will simply take the commander in the base, and instead choose 2x Lah Warriors as reinforcements. So if that's a factor then I think that making it 10 un-preventable and un-reducible damage is the way to go. Please no more saves!

To answer Jim's question from earlier as to why my squad was different or better against the vong than etienne's or bryan's

1. I had more movement breakers. Bryan had intuition and I don't think Etienne had any.
2. I had 2 jedi who could each kill a vong in an attack (cin/serra) while Bryan had to set it up with a won init with Cognus or had to shoot through the evade with Jax, and etienne couldn't really do it unless they based him first which they had no reason to because of the bugs
3. I had Marn -- I Think I could have done ok against him if I had something other than Marn, but giving me 4 blasters of my own (even if 3 of them had low HP) it really swung the pendulum.

Couple questions for you joe, if you dont mind me asking. What squads did you lose and beat last year at gencon? Also, are you able to take cins greater mobile and use it for the warriors?

One thing I would like to point out, if the blast bug commander is re-costed to 22 there will still be a direct damage option... Yomin Carr, all be it with a save of 11. It isnt the auto win against some tanks that the squad has now, but it is still potent. Even just the extra poison damage roll.

Thank you, I guess just reading the ability would have worked. (facepalm)

Played, Tim, Jim, Lou, Mike and Matt.
Very fun squad (for me)
2pt win vs. Tim, very tough.
1 pt. loss vs. Jim, had a chance until he rolled Reserves.
3 pt. win vs. Lou (Mace, GOWK, Yoda) needed a 16 to hit Mace, got a 17, 20, 16 and 15, one activation. Blast bugged the rest.
3 pt. win vs. Mike, with San Hill I took out Snipers pretty quick and when GG got off his bike (hurt) my Warriors chopped him up.
Loss vs. Matt might have had a chance (at least for 1 pt.) if I used Blast/Razor Bugs, but brought in a Priest instead.

Very fun and I got to hear the "Vong!?" groan.
Used Blast Bug only once, Cunning guy twice, Quedneck and Priest.

You left out Supreme Overlord Quorreal, the power 11 Vong piece from set 5.


That aside - let's do a comparison.


Almost all Vong have force immunity, that's kind of their thing. So that aside - what do they have that other factions don't?


Rebels vs Vong comparison:

Charging fire
Vong - 29 pts Domaine Shai subaltern. Gives almost exclusively to melee
Rebel - 25 pts Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor - gives to all followers

Evade
Vong - 29 pts Zenoc Quah. Followers only
Rebel - 14 pts Reikeen. All allies

+4/+10
Vong - 29 pts Zenoc Quah. Effectively almost for melee 10 damage only
Rebel - Ithorian Commander. For melee 10 damage only



So Zenoc and DS Subaltern are not the issues.


The issues are the insane "grunts" that get all the boosts.



There is nothing else in the game like Lah Warriors. In my opinion, what really "breaks" then is speed 8. Effectively +4 speed for charging fire Vong (the obvious pairing). That +4 speed is MASSIVE.

Compare to the High Bred Warriors. Already really good. But the Lah Warriors outclass them by far, mainly due to the speed 8.




We really need to be more careful about the lower cost "grunts" in future design. Making them even 1 pt less can have grave consequences.

The Save Priest exacerbated the problem, and the Blast Buggers are an issue as well. The fact that Quorreal allows you to "have it all" is the stake in the heart.

Joe's squad is well built, and synergizes perfectly. I remember talking to him at last years frosty-con, and we came to the same conclusion that (unfortunately) 3 Lah warriors are better than Tsavong, Warrior Elite. That's the exact OPPOSITE of the direction most of the design team and most of the community want Vong to go.


In Vset 10 we tried hard to push UNIQUE Vong to be competitive, but it's so hard to overcome the Lah Warriors.





In short, the Vong have many tools in their toolbox. Creating a cheap grunt that gets ALL of the great boosts at ONE TIME, and outclasses the previous vset version (that was already really good) by a good margin, is a mistake that the design team needs to be careful not to make again.


I agree with Joe that 13-14 cost for the Lah Warriors would be the sweet spot. That and make the Subcommander (blast bug giver) 22 pts (can't be brought in by Quorereal) is all you'd need to let the squad still compete, but be balanced.

In addition - make this the new glossary definition for Aggressive Negotiations:

At the start of the skirmish, this character is considered to have the Diplomat special ability. It has that ability until it either makes an attack, uses an ability that could cause damage or activate an enemy, or is targeted or attacked by an enemy character (such as through the normal means described in Diplomat or through special abilities such as Indiscriminate). Enemy characters with Ambush, Backlash, or It's a Trap! are able to ignore the Diplomat special ability gained through Aggressive Negotiations and target* this character. (*for purposes of attacking only)

Huge +1 here.

Replacing attacks to damage enemies is a dirty way around the outward appearances of Aggressive Negotiations.
An attacker approaching enemies unscathed before attacking is Aggressive Negotiations.

With 22pt WCS and 14 point Lah Warriors...

--Charging & Blast Buggering TANK squad--
30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal
29 Domain Shai Subaltern
28 Zenoc Quah
22 Warrior Caste Subcommander
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
56 Domain Lah Warrior x4
13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
5 Zonoma Sekot Scout
Preferred Reinforcements:
(S. O. Quorreal) 14 Domain Lah Warrior "Aggressive Negotiations"
(S. O. Quorreal) 8 Yuuzhan Vong Warrior "Aggressive Negotiations"
(198pts. 13 activations)
7 Blast Buggers, 140 unpreventable damage a round. (100 without AN guys)

--I Hate TANKS and mom's apple pie NPE Extreme--
30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal
28 Zenoc Quah
22 Warrior Caste Subcommander
17 Yuuzhan Vong Subaltern
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
70 Domain Lah Warrior x5
13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
5 Zonoma Sekot Scout
Preferred Reinforcements:
(S. O. Quorreal) 14 Domain Lah Warrior "Aggressive Negotiations"
(S. O. Quorreal) 8 Yuuzhan Vong Warrior "Aggressive Negotiations"
(200pts. 14 activations)
8 Blast Buggers, 160 unpreventable damage a round. (120 without AN guys)

Is stuff like this a problem too?

Captain Tarpals 20
Dug Black Sun Vigo 20
Togorian Black Sun Vigo 24
Klatooinian Black Sun Thug x 20 120
R7 x2 16

---

Total points 200. 40 range 12 nades at 30 damage each

I don't hear much about people running strafe to much anymore. Black sun is in the same conversation as vong, but not as OP as blast bug with nearly untouchable 10 point vong.