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Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 7:43:50 AM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
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I am just curious.... I have no real problem with master q, just the force power because it could have been designed better, but w/e.


didn't caedus already get hurt pretty hard with the change to battle manipulation... has he really done anything since that change? or maybe I am wrong and there was no chance.... lol.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 7:55:59 AM
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Haha no, you're right, they did change him - he used to be able to throw people into pits with it, but no longer.

Just a quick thought on Premonition - Meditation abilities don't have to have line of sight, neither do Anticipation, Sense the Future, etc. Seems perfectly reasonable to throw it in with those, since with all of them you could have the person locked in a dark closet somewhere and they'd still be able to use it.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:14:18 AM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
CorellianComedian wrote:
Haha no, you're right, they did change him - he used to be able to throw people into pits with it, but no longer.

Just a quick thought on Premonition - Meditation abilities don't have to have line of sight, neither do Anticipation, Sense the Future, etc. Seems perfectly reasonable to throw it in with those, since with all of them you could have the person locked in a dark closet somewhere and they'd still be able to use it.



I'm playing devils advocate here because I am bored at work mainly lol but on that line of thought....

Premonition does not stop an event from happening. how she cancels flow walking doesn't make any sense to me, but hey w/e she's not good enough for me to worry about. maybe if it ends up in new republic or something lol.
shmi15
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:14:56 AM
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Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,290
CorellianComedian wrote:
Haha no, you're right, they did change him - he used to be able to throw people into pits with it, but no longer.

Just a quick thought on Premonition - Meditation abilities don't have to have line of sight, neither do Anticipation, Sense the Future, etc. Seems perfectly reasonable to throw it in with those, since with all of them you could have the person locked in a dark closet somewhere and they'd still be able to use it.



But the precedent isn't those abilities. Those abilities don't cancel a used Force Power. The only comparison is Force Defense, and Force Absorb... The first is with 6 squares, the second is adjacent. I guess in my eyes the next step is "LoS". But we have skipped it, and went straight to "Boardwide".

And yes, ABM is non line of site and all those other things we don't like. So why create an alternate version that has a very specific purpose?


And VoL was one of the best Anti shooter pieces in the game.... Now if you counter him, were just right back to shooters overwhelming everything.


Again, I don't think right this second this piece will change anything. But if anyones intentions are to make Covenant pieces playable, this piece will become a problem.
DarkDracul
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:15:06 AM
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Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,058
Location: Kokomo
Deaths_Baine wrote:
didn't caedus already get hurt pretty hard with the change to battle manipulation... has he really done anything since that change? or maybe I am wrong and there was no chance.... lol.

There was a glossary change that SBM cannot be used to move characters into pits or other illegal spaces.
Which only prevented Caedus from being potentially abusive on maps with pits.

I don't think Caedus SL is significantly better or worse than before. He just hasn't been a factor lately. He got shredded by last year's Blast Bug squads and the players known for running him either didn't participate or play him at Regionals this year.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 8:22:07 AM
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DarkDracul wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
didn't caedus already get hurt pretty hard with the change to battle manipulation... has he really done anything since that change? or maybe I am wrong and there was no chance.... lol.

There was a glossary change that SBM cannot be used to move characters into pits or other illegal spaces.
Which only prevented Caedus from being potentially abusive on maps with pits.

I don't think Caedus SL is significantly better or worse than before. He just hasn't been a factor lately. He got shredded by last year's Blast Bug squads and the players known for running him either didn't participate or play him at Regionals this year.



I think that change is quite significant it completely changes what you have to worry about when you play against caedus.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:03:44 AM
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Caedus still made top 8 after the change.

Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:09:43 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Caedus still made top 8 after the change.




awesome, what year was that, been out of the loop a little bit.
DarkDracul
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:26:53 AM
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Joined: 4/18/2008
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Location: Kokomo
shmi15 wrote:
Again, I don't think right this second this piece will change anything. But if anyones intentions are to make Covenant pieces playable, this piece will become a problem.
Confused
Master Q has 4 Force w/o Renewal or MotF2.
Premonition costs 2 (half her Force points) and she can only do it ONCE a turn.

Force users like VoL or Caedus have MotF2, can even spend an additional 3rd time, and have force batteries.
They can hoard tons of Force points and spend multiple times a turn. Caedus can Sith Battle Meditation 3X in a row...
Master Q mayl cancel a pre-init Force Power but they'll just spend and do it again. That might be annoy to them but it's just leveling the playing field for a teir 2 Subfaction squad.

Most Pre-Init Force Powers are being used from behind walls or prior to engagement.
Requiring adjacency or Los to cancel them would make Premonition impractical and completely useless.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Master Q was one of the greatest seers of her generation. She can see events before they happen, and then attempt to prevent those events from happening with her Covenant.
DarkDracul
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:27:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,058
Location: Kokomo
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Caedus still made top 8 after the change.




awesome, what year was that, been out of the loop a little bit.

2016
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:29:38 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
DarkDracul wrote:
Confused
Master Q has 4 Force w/o Renewal or MotF2.
Premonition costs 2 (half her Force points) and she can only do it ONCE a turn.

Force users like VoL or Caedus have MotF2, can even spend an additional 3rd time, and have force batteries.
They can hoard tons of Force points and spend multiple times a turn. Caedus can Sith Battle Meditation 3X in a row...
Master Q mayl cancel a pre-init Force Power but they'll just spend and do it again. That might be annoy to them but it's just leveling the playing field for a teir 2 Subfaction squad.

Most Pre-Init Force Powers are being used from behind walls or prior to engagement.
Requiring adjacency or Los to cancel them would make Premonition impractical and completely useless.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Master Q was one of the greatest seers of her generation. She can see events before they happen, and then attempt to prevent those events from happening with her Covenant.



she couldn't see the darkside rising her in ranks lol.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 10:32:49 AM
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Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,048
shmi15 wrote:
CorellianComedian wrote:
Haha no, you're right, they did change him - he used to be able to throw people into pits with it, but no longer.

Just a quick thought on Premonition - Meditation abilities don't have to have line of sight, neither do Anticipation, Sense the Future, etc. Seems perfectly reasonable to throw it in with those, since with all of them you could have the person locked in a dark closet somewhere and they'd still be able to use it.



But the precedent isn't those abilities. Those abilities don't cancel a used Force Power. The only comparison is Force Defense, and Force Absorb... The first is with 6 squares, the second is adjacent. I guess in my eyes the next step is "LoS". But we have skipped it, and went straight to "Boardwide".


And yes, ABM is non line of site and all those other things we don't like. So why create an alternate version that has a very specific purpose?


And VoL was one of the best Anti shooter pieces in the game.... Now if you counter him, were just right back to shooters overwhelming everything.


Again, I don't think right this second this piece will change anything. But if anyones intentions are to make Covenant pieces playable, this piece will become a problem.


Okay, I totally see where you're coming from - Aing-Tii couldn't be "canceled" just by knowing about it ahead of time. I would argue that (A) Anticipation and Sense the Future could be overruled, simply because all three of them are the same principle applied different ways, and (B) Surprise Move and Surprise Attack are out because... you knew it was going to happen... so it is no longer a surprise...

But from the aspect of super-long-range Force power cancellation, I totally understand your point, even if I disagree with it.

Regarding VoL, I agree - he's great shooter deterrent, and we shouldn't reign him in too much. But, there are two things to note: VoL is anti-ranged. Yeah, he's good against melee, but his focus is anti-ranged. It's kinda like saying an ability is bad because it makes Dash Rendar bad at fighting adjacent enemies. Also, if he's facing Premonition, he's facing a melee squad - he doesn't need to rush across the map anyways. He'll usually be in gambit already anyways, so he just needs to wait for them to try and come to him.

Lastly, I'd say that Q'Anila is not Doombot, Mas, or Dodonna. She's not a 10-point piece that every shooter squad will include to protect against Vader. She's a piece very specifically designed to help the Covenant, and requires you to skip the cornerstone OR piece. Giving a weak subfaction a counter to ONE counter piece is not going to break the game. For Q to overturn the balance would require that the Covenant become massively powerful - maybe creating a situation where you have to play Covenant, or counter, or counter-counter. But, the Covenant also has some of the most fantastic ranged defense in the game in the Covenant Defender - so even if the Covenant drives VoL out of the meta, they themselves will fill his shoes as anti-ranged pieces. And all of what I just said is ignoring the fact that there are a bunch of other pieces (Obi-Kin, Plagueis the Wise) also keeping shooters honest.

TL;DR - It's a game mechanic, giving a unique toy to one subfaction. I understand where you're coming from, I just disagree.

Cheers to everyone for keeping it classy so far ThumbsUp BlooMilk ThumpUp
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:12:19 PM
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so..... how about the Ven Zallow lol. ThumbsUp
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:40:22 PM
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Deaths_Baine wrote:
so..... how about the Ven Zallow lol. ThumbsUp


You gonna be there tomorrow? Wink
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:43:45 PM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
so..... how about the Ven Zallow lol. ThumbsUp


You gonna be there tomorrow? Wink


I wish lol.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:56:47 PM
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
so..... how about the Ven Zallow lol. ThumbsUp


You gonna be there tomorrow? Wink


I wish lol.


too bad.



TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:00:52 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
oh and 2 great previews on the SHNN last night. One long lipped singer and one ambitious director.

One of them is posted
shmi15
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 2:12:58 PM
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Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,290
CorellianComedian wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
CorellianComedian wrote:
Haha no, you're right, they did change him - he used to be able to throw people into pits with it, but no longer.

Just a quick thought on Premonition - Meditation abilities don't have to have line of sight, neither do Anticipation, Sense the Future, etc. Seems perfectly reasonable to throw it in with those, since with all of them you could have the person locked in a dark closet somewhere and they'd still be able to use it.



But the precedent isn't those abilities. Those abilities don't cancel a used Force Power. The only comparison is Force Defense, and Force Absorb... The first is with 6 squares, the second is adjacent. I guess in my eyes the next step is "LoS". But we have skipped it, and went straight to "Boardwide".


And yes, ABM is non line of site and all those other things we don't like. So why create an alternate version that has a very specific purpose?


And VoL was one of the best Anti shooter pieces in the game.... Now if you counter him, were just right back to shooters overwhelming everything.


Again, I don't think right this second this piece will change anything. But if anyones intentions are to make Covenant pieces playable, this piece will become a problem.


Okay, I totally see where you're coming from - Aing-Tii couldn't be "canceled" just by knowing about it ahead of time. I would argue that (A) Anticipation and Sense the Future could be overruled, simply because all three of them are the same principle applied different ways, and (B) Surprise Move and Surprise Attack are out because... you knew it was going to happen... so it is no longer a surprise...

But from the aspect of super-long-range Force power cancellation, I totally understand your point, even if I disagree with it.

Regarding VoL, I agree - he's great shooter deterrent, and we shouldn't reign him in too much. But, there are two things to note: VoL is anti-ranged. Yeah, he's good against melee, but his focus is anti-ranged. It's kinda like saying an ability is bad because it makes Dash Rendar bad at fighting adjacent enemies. Also, if he's facing Premonition, he's facing a melee squad - he doesn't need to rush across the map anyways. He'll usually be in gambit already anyways, so he just needs to wait for them to try and come to him.

Lastly, I'd say that Q'Anila is not Doombot, Mas, or Dodonna. She's not a 10-point piece that every shooter squad will include to protect against Vader. She's a piece very specifically designed to help the Covenant, and requires you to skip the cornerstone OR piece. Giving a weak subfaction a counter to ONE counter piece is not going to break the game. For Q to overturn the balance would require that the Covenant become massively powerful - maybe creating a situation where you have to play Covenant, or counter, or counter-counter. But, the Covenant also has some of the most fantastic ranged defense in the game in the Covenant Defender - so even if the Covenant drives VoL out of the meta, they themselves will fill his shoes as anti-ranged pieces. And all of what I just said is ignoring the fact that there are a bunch of other pieces (Obi-Kin, Plagueis the Wise) also keeping shooters honest.

TL;DR - It's a game mechanic, giving a unique toy to one subfaction. I understand where you're coming from, I just disagree.

Cheers to everyone for keeping it classy so far ThumbsUp BlooMilk ThumpUp




I don't think the piece is broken by any means. I don't put him on par with Dodonna, Doombot or Mas. My sole complaint is he is focused on certain pieces in the Force Using community. And I feel like all it does is take options away from a play style thats hurting more than any other play style. And IF the sub faction gets better pieces, and becomes T 1.5, then those Force Using options are no longer an option. But I feel like people keep forgetting about her being able to get a Battery herself, and yes, those pieces have MOTF2, I get that... But that doesn't change my point that they are hurting really bad by it.

Again.... Not saying this piece will be used right off the bat. I'm talking of the future.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 2:36:57 PM
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What's everybody think about Orson and Sy?
shmi15
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 2:40:59 PM
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Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,290
TimmerB123 wrote:
What's everybody think about Orson and Sy?



I don't see their stats
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