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TimmerB123 wrote:DarkDracul wrote: Sadly, it's impossible to cater to everyone. It is impossible to cater to everyone. Catering to "most" is noble. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again in this community, the rabid minority scream loudest. What they are really complaining about is that you are not catering to THEM specifically. How dare you! It's odd. It's almost as if these things are subjective. catering to most is noble huh..... That's the worst logic I have ever read in my entire life.... So if most want to come into your house and steal all your stuff you going to cater to it?--extreme example but the point is you don't cater to nonsense, you don't cater to things that are wrong, and you most definitely don't cater to the majority just because they are the majority.
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its not all bad though designers... hermit obi is cool and Anakin should be a lot of fun. Canderous may make sith playable. I do look forward to some of the other names
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Catering to "most" is noble. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again in this community, the rabid minority scream loudest.
well in this case (and most cases) the "minority" are the only ones talking.... TimmerB123 wrote:
What they are really complaining about is that you are not catering to THEM specifically.
I am just asking for accurate portrayals of pieces, nothing specific to me. Everyone that has written on here besides a designer on the thread itself has stated that it is at the very least "odd". TimmerB123 wrote:
It's almost as if these things are subjective.
There not. We have had this discussion over and over again. Designs should never be subjective. If they are then they fall in the realm of being inaccurate. You can make accurate designs that are not subjective at all. Subjective definition influenced by or based on personal beliefs or feelings, rather than based on facts: soooo if designs are based on personal beliefs rather than facts we have a problem. This whole narrative that a few select peopel whine about designs so they should be ignored is obnoxious. Especially when it is a fundamental issue of designing for a Star Wars game... How do you take Canon and turn it into a design? Well you ask yourself, given the information we have will this make sense? Rey fighting alongside Snoke as A First Order character makes no sense. Kylo fighting with the New Republic along his mother after murdering his father and her husband makes zero sense. The fact that Chewbacca gets a Impulsive Reprisal if Kylo dies is dumb, he, obviously hates Kylo, The fact that he will get mad and Retailory Barrage when Kylo dies is also dumb. The idea that he gets Rapport with Kylo is dumb. Finn gets a protective bonus to protect Kylo. Lor San Tekka helps Kylo use Force Repulse and allows Kylo to make an attack when he dies, BB-8 gives Kylo +4 defense, if you so happen to play Han and Chewbacca guess what happens? Chewbacca is bodyguarding Kylo Ren. He is his fraking bodyguard... If someone was being "subjective" (influenced by their beliefs) and felt that Kylo belonged in a Resistance squad with all of those benefits than they were being really silly. It is literally impossible to beleive that you can "subjectively" come to the conclusion that this makes any sense. Designs cannot be subjective.
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jen'ari wrote:Designs cannot be subjective. I don't know if what you're wanting is possible. Since the conception of this game from WOTC, designing pieces was an art, not a science. I believe it was Rodney who said that there was no exact formula to design; just gut instinct. This piece should cost roughly this much... but since it's a fan favorite, we'll just remove a few points to boost it's power. Piece is non force sensitive but we need a luck mechanic... ok, we'll give Han Force Point rerolls.
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adamb0nd wrote:jen'ari wrote:Designs cannot be subjective. I don't know if what you're wanting is possible. Since the conception of this game from WOTC, designing pieces was an art, not a science. I believe it was Rodney who said that there was no exact formula to design; just gut instinct. This piece should cost roughly this much... but since it's a fan favorite, we'll just remove a few points to boost it's power. Piece is non force sensitive but we need a luck mechanic... ok, we'll give Han Force Point rerolls. Restatement. Designs have to be as least subjective as possible. Since we have game mechanics we have to have some"bending". However, things have to have basis from real events. For instance, acrobatics on the piece. Where did that come from? The answer is nowhere. It came from nowhere. Using a subjective perspective you can add acrobatics onto the piece.
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Pieces in our game are interpretations of characters on the screen (/book/comic/video game, etc)
Interpretations are subjective by definition.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Pieces in our game are interpretations of characters on the screen (/book/comic/video game, etc)
Interpretations are subjective by definition.
Pieces in our game are interpretations, we agree. But the"in-game character" had to do what the "on screen/comic/video game" character does. You cannot MAKE UP something. Especially in specifically times pieces like reylo. This is them during the theme room scene fighting together. There were no acrobatics so... One CANNOT RIGHTLY interpret acrobatics onto a piece that is supposed to represent them. That would be silly and wrong an inaccurate. (Which it is). Interpretations are not subjective, how a designer turns a skill/feat into a game mechanic is the only subjective part. Sometimes it is easy (melee attack, levitation) Sometimes it is more difficult (swap, sith battle manipulation, resol'nare) However if a designer goes beyond what can be interpreted and does something that is not correct to what we saw during the scene/comic/video game that is being represented than we get an inaccurate and unthematic design. Which is the case with ReyLo. I don't really see anyone arguing that it is themicatically correct. (Because it can't happen)
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I mostly agree with your gripe on Acrobatics, jen'ari. I think a few things may have happened here, based on the designer's response to this.
1. The throne room fight is super flashy. Acrobatics made sense to me when I thought about this scene from memory. Upon reviewing it again, the flashiness is more from the royal guards. ReyLo mostly stands back-to-back to the guard them off. The designer maybe associated flashy choreography with acrobatics. Not accurate IMHO, but could explain it.
2. The decision was ultimately mechanical functionality. The Designer wanted a large base fig to have the ability to navigate swarms. Also don't like this, but I understand.
3. Kylo and Rey do manage to break through the guards. This would more accurately be a rolling cleave, imho, but I could see an argument that he mechanics of acrobatics are appropriate, despite the name not being an accurate depiction of the crowd breaker tactics.
4. as the designer said, these characters apparently both play acrobatically in some video game most of us boycotted because EA is satan.
Seems like enough that it's justifiable, at least from a certain point of view. I find the factions and name-mechanic to be a bigger concern.
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DarkDracul wrote:
That's a cool concept, maybe that will happen after episode 9? lol
I totally get how Reylo is a little wonky and outside some people's comfort zones.
It is different and fitting IMHO for a character on a "The Last Jedi" mini-set.
But other designers will probably take note of this and avoid such characters in the future.
That's fair and it just goes back to that different people's interpretations of how things are to be done. But that's the beauty of the world is that we can have different opinions and thoughts and barring some of the major life ones there often isn't a "this is the only way" type opinions. Adam, I and others loved the vehicles set, apparently there is a lot of hate for it. Things in SWM I think are weird and would have done away with or done differently: Lobot, Strafe pieces, Bastilla, Buzz Droids, Sith Vader, reserve hate pieces, keeper of the whills, Ghost Cave and to a lesser extent holocrons (mostly because you smart rules guys won't let me make them into grenade launching medpac pumping tools of awesomeness!) and now Reylo. I'm sure if we asked everyone else they would have a different list of things WOTC and the VSET designers got wrong, by our opinions. And it's fine to voice thoughts on it but keep it civil and friendly everyone!
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Glossary Text
A character using this ability can move through enemy characters. In addition, this character does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
they get attacked the whole time and hurt actually as they move around the room... this isn't like yoda in the cartoon taking out droids by jumping on their heads and over tanks and stuff...
this is game mechanic pure and simple--- there's literally nothing acrobatic about that fight scene....nothing....
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I think Crowd fighting is 1000000 times more accurate for them then Acrobatics. But who are we right? Just the minority.
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This line: adamb0nd wrote:
4. as the designer said, these characters apparently both play acrobatically in some video game most of us boycotted because EA is satan.
Hahahaha so true! 
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I 100% understand the NEED for acrobatics. Master Thon needs it too.
My biggest gripe isn't just acrobatics it is that:
Chewbacca can become Kylo Ren's Bodyguard. It is that Lor San Tekka helps Kylo use Force Repulse, it is that Kylo dying upsets Chewbacca, its that Finn gets a protective bonus for Kylo Ren, it is that BB-8 grants Kylo Ren +4 defense, LUKE skywalker can save Kylo's life......
It is that:
General Hux grants Rey +4 defense, Snoke becomes Rey's Dark Master, The Imperial Protocol Droid gets to use its "allegiance" while in an army with Rey, Snoke's CE states "While your squad contains only First Order characters: Allies within 6 squares get +4 Attack and +10 Damage." This is still in effect with Rey in the squad, she does not negate the 'only First order" clause of the CE.
Those interactions are unneccessary and uncalled for really. A designer did not look at what was presented and say "subjectively speaking this can make sense". It simply doesn't make sense at all.
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TimmerB123 wrote:DarkDracul wrote: Sadly, it's impossible to cater to everyone. It is impossible to cater to everyone. Catering to "most" is noble. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again in this community, the rabid minority scream loudest. What they are really complaining about is that you are not catering to THEM specifically. How dare you! It's odd. It's almost as if these things are subjective. Plus if anyone outside the community is reading this, please note that all the complainants are from the same playgroup and mostly family. For instance General Grievous represents an entire playgroup (and one that actually holds regionals etc and has a Hall Of Famer).
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TheHutts wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:DarkDracul wrote: Sadly, it's impossible to cater to everyone. It is impossible to cater to everyone. Catering to "most" is noble. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again in this community, the rabid minority scream loudest. What they are really complaining about is that you are not catering to THEM specifically. How dare you! It's odd. It's almost as if these things are subjective. Plus if anyone outside the community is reading this, please note that all the complainants are from the same playgroup and mostly family. For instance General Grievous represents an entire playgroup (and one that actually holds regionals etc and has a Hall Of Famer). To anyone out there (ya right) if you don't like something about something you need to keep it to yourself or you will be ostracized and made to be a demon. Haha shmi and I are old school TN play group. But we are not a play group, just 2 people. The TN play group is mostly dead. Bronson is gone, Trevor is gone, a bunch of others play Vassal sometimes but that's it. But thehutts, way to ignore the discussion and try to belittle the points brought up whilst talking but not bringing anything to the discussion, this is a discussion about the vset 16 designs. Why don't you join the conversation? Because you know it would be silly to "back" the designers? Or do you actually believe that the design is silly but don't want to say anything because you would be aligning yourself with TN? I find your statement belittling and rude. Family? Shmi are we family? I claim you either way. His sister is married to my brother (who quit minis a year ago). What kind of game is it where 2 people from a dead play group who hardly ever agree "respectfully" discuss an unthematic design cause enough "ripples" for thehutts to make a disclaimer statement? Hahahahahaha Or was that just bait to try to derail the thread? Haha can't defend the design? Let's be rude and watch jen'ari "rage" and sink his own ⛵ P.s. our old play group had a would be Hall of Famer but declined due to differences, stupidity of the "vset team", and no desire to be a part of "an elitist group" game.
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TheHutts wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:DarkDracul wrote: Sadly, it's impossible to cater to everyone. It is impossible to cater to everyone. Catering to "most" is noble. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again in this community, the rabid minority scream loudest. What they are really complaining about is that you are not catering to THEM specifically. How dare you! It's odd. It's almost as if these things are subjective. Plus if anyone outside the community is reading this, please note that all the complainants are from the same playgroup and mostly family. For instance General Grievous represents an entire playgroup (and one that actually holds regionals etc and has a Hall Of Famer). is this for real? is this really a defense? is this how this community work? you disregard points due to people being from the same play group.. even if they are family what does that matter? are the points valid or aren't they hutts?
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Not sure that's what thehutt was doing. Seemed more like he was trying to keep any new players from fleeing in fear of frustration between the community and designers in this thread. As far as I can tell, the answer to the concerns with Reylo is:
"We see your complaints, we'll have designers keep this complaint in mind moving forward".
I'm not sure what better or other response you could hope for this late in the design process.
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adamb0nd wrote:Not sure that's what thehutt was doing. Seemed more like he was trying to keep any new players from fleeing in fear of frustration between the community and designers in this thread. As far as I can tell, the answer to the concerns with Reylo is:
"We see your complaints, we'll have designers keep this complaint in mind moving forward".
I'm not sure what better or other response you could hope for this late in the design process. I made the complaints during the design process, they didn't care. They didn't want to "keep it in mind" they actually mock those that care about theme. and I quote darkdracul "Hey, feel free to blame me if anyone gets their panties in a bunch over it. It's not like I've never been accused of being a crappy designer for putting good game mechanics over theme. Lol" They knew that it was not thematic while designing it. They had discussions about how to spin it so that they could explain it. Which is why darkdracul had a quick long explanation, it was pre-made.
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