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TheHutts wrote:Klatooinian Black Sun Thug, from Shadows  Quote:6 points, Fringe
Hit Points: 10
Defense: 16
Attack: 3
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Black Sun (If a character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10)
Satchel Charge (Replaces attacks: Designate 1 adjacent door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets) As a rule of thumb, WOTC Klatooinians are terrible and v-set Klatooinians are amazing. Funny story (at least I think it is). This piece started out as "Black Sun Thug" (It was not a Klatooinian). The Recommended minis had already been selected and locked into place due to this being a set that was being released at GenCon and the sealed event customs had to already be in progress. I've always had a (some say irrational) desire to represent more species in SWM, so sometimes I get up on a soapbox about it (hopefully in a respectful way). The (generic) black sun thug felt like the perfect example to present this option for here's an excerpt of a message I sent to a vset 8 designer: TimmerB123 wrote:Just looking through the vset 8 list, and I'm excited about it's potential. One very minor thing that jumped out at me that I thought I'd bring up. By all means take this with a huge grain of salt and disregard if you want. There's a few figures that I felt might benefit from a species designation. I found that there were a handful of community members that wanted not only specific characters represented, but also simply having non-uniques to represent aspects of specific species. The Star Wars Universe is wide and varied (one of my favorite things about it), and so is our game (ditto). I felt the same way, and I urged the vset 7 team to add a few species designators to a couple of more "generic" characters. In vset 7, we had 2 figures that we changed after the set list was made to include a species. In both cases, they happen to be previously unrepresented species. The Black Sun Slicer turned into the Givin Black Sun Slicer, and the Jedi General became the Arkanian Jedi General. In both cases, the initial urge to do so was simply to represent a species previously untouched by SWMs. I was satisfied by that alone. Interestingly, it made the flavor and direction of the pieces blossom. The Arkanian Jedi General gained prideful, and eventually became an amazing piece that might actually be the start of a competitive OR build that does not include Bastila!!! I don't think it would have ever gone there without the flavor direction from the species. Anyway - there are a couple that stood out to me on your list. I'll share my thoughts, then let you take it from there if you choose. The set is already locked into the RMs (due to the sealed at GenCon), so I kept that in mind. BS Thug -- (RM - Klat Enforcer) This would be the first Black Sun non-unique (of 12 so far) WITHOUT a species designation, so this one really jumped out at me. We already have the Abyssian BS Thug, and I think it would help distinguish it better if it specified a species. Two that come to mind that would work well here would be Balosar http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Balosar_(species) or Clawdite http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Clawdite. Both would work for the RM (Clawdite would be dead on in in their natural form). Balosar wouldn't even change the set list number (both start with B). Imagine the fun you could have with a Clawdite (Zam Wessel's species, shapeshifter). Both are species known to be involved in the underworld, so it fits perfectly to be in Black Sun. This idea was passed around by the designers and gained some momentum. Clawdite got some designers excited, and they had it as that for awhile. But then it was decided, if it was to be a Clawdite, it would take the fig in a direction they didn't want it to go (understandable). I was hoping they would try Balosar or some other species that was unrepresented (or under represented). Even though I am on the design team, I was not a designer on that set. I try and stick to the rule when I am not a designer on that set of suggesting something only once. I didn't want to meddle in their process, and I didn't want to say anything else. They eventually decided that they would make it a Klatooinian. (forehead slap) I only tell this story as a humorous anecdote. It really doesn't matter, but the path that lead to yet another "amazing vset Klatooinian" I guess in part was started by me. Even though my intent was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what ended up happening. Lol
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@sinestro
Thanks for the feedback. One of the reasons that I started this whole thread was because I was irritated by threads about how the v-sets are way stronger than the WOTC sets, and also bizarre statements like "the Bodyguard Droid is the best bodyguard in the game." I wanted to try and quantify everything fairly.
It's difficult to get past the comparisons - the Klat Assassin especially, as it does obsolete most pieces in the 10-16 point range - and it is a good framework for ranking things.
It's an interesting debate whether pieces that are getting 1s and 2s are worth saving - sometimes it's a case of a potentially interesting piece being way overcosted, and they could be really strong with a more realistic cost. But in other cases, I don't know if there's much you can do to help really bad pieces like the Klaatoinian Hunter - 10 hit points, no ranged defense, and heavy weapon is never going to make a good piece - and the same goes for lots of WOTC scrubs that don't do anything interesting and that are vulnerable to the Lancer/Yobuck. But I can try to mention recosting ideas when it's applicable.
For the record, I don't actually mind Mas, Yobuck, and Lobot all that much - tempo control and swarms of cloaked pieces or troopers that can run 12 and shoot are probably the most obnoxious things in my experience.
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TheHutts wrote:
It's difficult to get past the comparisons - the Klat Assassin especially, as it does obsolete most pieces in the 10-16 point range - and it is a good framework for ranking things.
I can see how the Klat Assassin may have slipped past playtesting. On its face, it looks like the Kel Dor Bounty Hunter with just a few changes. One point cheaper, but you lose 10hp, lower defense, and Self-Destruct 20 instead of 40. But add Cloaked, +10dmg. Swap Bounty Hunter for Jedi Hatred. As it turns out, Cloaked + base 20 dmg is worth a TON. Cloaked especially. When I first played a game with the Klat Assassin, I thought the attack seemed awfully high, but I didn't immediately run out and build a squad with him. I just put him away and forgot about for months.
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Blizz, from Shadows  Quote:20 points, Fringe
Hit Points: 60
Defense: 18
Attack: 9
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Unique
Jawa
Flamethrower 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target)
Ion Gun +20 (+20 Damage against nonliving enemies)
Missiles 30 (Replaces attacks: sight; 30 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking)
Repair 20 (Replaces attacks: touch; remove 20 damage from 1 Droid character)
Shields 1 (When this character takes damage, he reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11) With his Replace Attacks abilities, Blizz is just asking for a place in a Republic Tarpals squad, and he's well worth the points with his durability and options of Missiles 30 and Flamethrower 20. We saw Gungan squads do well in some Regionals last year, and it's well worth swapping Blizz in for a couple of Gungan Artillerists, given his flexibility and extra staying power. Outside of the Republic, Blizz doesn't have as many synergies - he might be interesting in a Caedus squad where you can group pieces and then Flamethrower or Missile them. But at 20 points, he's a good reinforcement choice if you want an extra source of damage. It's early days, but Blizz seems like a strong piece with some definite competitive potential, 9/10.
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TheHutts wrote:@sinestro
Thanks for the feedback. One of the reasons that I started this whole thread was because I was irritated by threads about how the v-sets are way stronger than the WOTC sets, and also bizarre statements like "the Bodyguard Droid is the best bodyguard in the game." I wanted to try and quantify everything fairly.
It's an interesting debate whether pieces that are getting 1s and 2s are worth saving - sometimes it's a case of a potentially interesting piece being way overcosted, and they could be really strong with a more realistic cost. But in other cases, I don't know if there's much you can do to help really bad pieces like the Klaatoinian Hunter - 10 hit points, no ranged defense, and heavy weapon is never going to make a good piece
For the record, I don't actually mind Mas, Yobuck, and Lobot all that much - tempo control and swarms of cloaked pieces or troopers that can run 12 and shoot are probably the most obnoxious things in my experience. I think everything is fair, and it's interesting to read through. You've got probably 75% of the remaining few dozen people who actively play the game in this forum so the signal to noise ratio is good. I guess as a somebody looking to do something with 700+ figures I think the expended effort coudl be put to actual use. One of the discussions that stood out was Evan Piell. Republic - 29 points Hit Points: 90 Defense: 19 Attack: 14 Damage: 20 Unique Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving) Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies) Mettle (If this character spends 1 Force point to reroll, add +4 to the result) Force 4 Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Lightsaber Sweep (Force 1, replaces attacks: Can attack each adjacent enemy once) We all agree it's a figure with non trivial utility (unlike your Klantoonian hunter). Everyone also seemed to agree that it was not, given context of other figures, commander effects, etc. worth 29 points. You guys also (which is great for somebody who has been away from the game for 5+ years) revisit and debate the figures place in historical competitive squad building (regional play, Gencon) and can't find anyone using him. We probably also all agree that if it were 3 points it would see play (still not over Mas) and be considered ubiquitous and possibly broken. So what is the cost to make this figure one that you would consider putting on (some) Republic squad? Is it 19? 22? 15? IMHO instead of 1,2,3,4 a debate around what it should cost might be a more interesting thought exercise. Maybe this sort of goes against the spirit of the work being done on the V-Sets, it is certainly debatable.
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It doesn't go against the V sets at all. Rapport is one of the things that has been used to help the old WotC pieces. As for Piell I'll have to take a closer look. Accurate point costs are an interesting debate.
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This of course isn't as accurate as it could be, but a quick estimate on my part would put Evan Piell around 21-23 in order to be competitive.
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I like the idea of guessing a competitive cost as part of the analysis/debate.
To build on SignerJ's comment, I think Piell would need to be around 18-19 max to be competitive. Foul Moudama is 23, is more useful (especially w/ the movement breaker), and is competitive.
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As a frame of reference for Even Piell, is the Jedi Weapon Master still competitive? It still seems solid enough for 26 points, but I never see them on the table anymore. I'd probably give them around a 7, maybe an 8, at this stage.
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sephiroth99is wrote:To build on SignerJ's comment, I think Piell would need to be around 18-19 max to be competitive. Foul Moudama is 23, is more useful (especially w/ the movement breaker), and is competitive. Yes, I, too, looked at Foul, and also the Jedi Battlemaster. I'm against giving Jedi with Double Attack a cost below 20, but otherwise I would agree with your proposed cost.
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The problem is that there is no competitive Jedi around Piell's power level. The JWM, Serra, and Aayla are high 20s or low 30s. Foul is more useful but he is tech and is a tough comparison. To find the next playable Jedi who isn't tech you go to Coleman at 14.
So somewhere between 14 and 28. I would say 22 if we were just re-costing, but there are so many other Jedi in the same boat that a targeted boost seems better than big rapport. Aayla and Serra makes it really hard to boost Piell but not them.
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Piell is just a bland piece.
Competitive pieces either have a distinct role and/or are heavily undercosted for what they do. Even Piell had no chance against a JWM. I'd agree that in todays game he is about 20 points but i don't think he would see play there. You could put him in a Jorus squad but block and sweep aren't the best uses in that squad.
His best trick is a +18 att. 20 damage on the move went out with Clone Strike. (Not really, Universe more like)
He is a beat stick and he fills his role poorly.
Saying that, you could probably play him and have fun with him. His stats are good but in a competitive game he's likely either to soak up a lot of damage instead of your main threat or do 20 dmg and die.
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Competitive pieces either have a distinct role and/or are heavily undercosted for what they do. Even Piell had no chance against a JWM. I'd agree that in todays game he is about 20 points but i don't think he would see play there.
That's what makes the question interesting, I think. I think at 20-22 he becomes appropriately costed. He'd be the best option for a Republic Force-using melee beat at that price, and he would have monster base stats to go with it. You're probably right, though, because melee beats at that point level just aren't played. But in any squad looking for a tertiary attacker, he'd be the choice if you want a melee Force user. Which is why I'd put him around 22. But assuming no other boosts for him ever come around, and assuming you want him to be played regularly I think you'd put him around 15 or 16. Because in general, you'd take a lower-HP, lower-attack shooter with more damage output. He would need to have a cost down in that range in order to take him over the IG-86/Klat Assassin.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
You're probably right, though, because melee beats at that point level just aren't played.
Interesting observation. But yet we all agree that if we kept lowering the cost at some point he'd become an auto include (in Rebuplic) on efficiency alone. Is that statement based on there being no beater that outweighs the benefit of range in that cost band? The reality of there being a bunch of cloaked / stealth / evade stuff that beats ... so why ever play anything that is subject to being shot?
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Blizz has a pile o ticks, I luv him. As only a man can luv a Jawa  check out my custom of him in my thread
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sinestro wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:
You're probably right, though, because melee beats at that point level just aren't played.
Interesting observation. But yet we all agree that if we kept lowering the cost at some point he'd become an auto include (in Rebuplic) on efficiency alone. Is that statement based on there being no beater that outweighs the benefit of range in that cost band? The reality of there being a bunch of cloaked / stealth / evade stuff that beats ... so why ever play anything that is subject to being shot? I mentioned that melee beats in that point range aren't played because that makes it very hard to accurately price Even Piell. There's really nothing to compare him to. For playable melee beat sticks in Republic, you go from Coleman Trebor (who is really playable more for Master Speed than damage output, but he's not really a tech piece) at cost 14 up to Aayla at 29. Even Piell is clearly somewhere between the two, but it's hard to say where. The reason they aren't played is that the shooters in that point range are better options. Or, really, it's just better to be in other point ranges to begin with. Higher cost gets you more survivability/damage. Lower cost gets you more activations. But if you are in this point range, the shooters generally are stronger. Survivability and damage output are how you win. Even Piell (and the other melee beatsticks) get their main advantage in that arena through high base stats. But Stealth/Cloaked/Evade and being able to shoot (thus being far away from the melee beats) provides better survivability than Piell's pile of HP and high defense. I'd say his survivability only slightly exceeds the Cloaked Klatooinian Assassin. Piell dies in two rounds to most decent shooters. The Klat falls in one round to almost any attacker who reaches him, but requiring adjacency to be attacked buys him a round of survival. In terms of damage output, Piell has a higher ceiling, but he's about the same as the Klat Assassin or IG-86 on the move. Piell has to survive a round standing still to be able to use his double attack. Slightly higher attack rating makes Piell's damage a bit more reliable, but the Klat can safely shoot for multiple rounds until someone catches up to him, and has Self-Destruct when he dies. I'd say Piell gets a slight edge in survivability and call it a wash in damage output. In that sense, I put Piell slightly ahead of the Klat Assassin - assuming no other boosts for Piell ever come around. Cost 15 or so. If re-costing, though, I would do it based on the idea that other boosts will come along and would try to make Piell's cost in line with the other melee options. Based on that comparison, about 21 or 22. At that cost, he still wouldn't see play, but if melee beats in that range did become playable he would be in line with other options.
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sinestro wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:
You're probably right, though, because melee beats at that point level just aren't played.
Interesting observation. But yet we all agree that if we kept lowering the cost at some point he'd become an auto include (in Rebuplic) on efficiency alone. Is that statement based on there being no beater that outweighs the benefit of range in that cost band? The reality of there being a bunch of cloaked / stealth / evade stuff that beats ... so why ever play anything that is subject to being shot? I think even in the WOTC era, Jedi only really succeeded if they had good ranged defense like Stealth or Evade or good movement like tow or swap. Piell would be a lot better with Stealth or Lightsaber Deflect. As fingersandteeth noted in the original post, Piell is also a weird piece because he has nothing significant to use his Mettle with. If he had built in Parry or something, Mettle would make a lot more sense, and he'd at least be a decent anti-melee piece.
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That is what I was thinking, the mettle...its not worthless but without MOTF2, he can just use it to reroll attacks. Which is nice, he doesn't have bad stats and if you are using him with say General Skywalker for Momentum he is swinging with a 22, that isn't bad...but being able to actually use it for Block or Deflect (or parry or evade) would make him a lot better. But he isn't terrible, you could lower his cost and he would be good, he is just very very bland. I like original Shaak Ti (she was the first rare I got, is a cool character and has a great sculpt) and she may not be the best piece in the world but I think she is interesting. She has stealth, with crowd fighting and sweep she can be real mean to someone who has clumped up (or even better move her at the end of the turn Leaping into position, next turn Sweep.) And even if she is overcosted or just not good at least she has something different going.
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I've read old recosting threads on Wizards, and there's a school of thought that if you start recosting bland pieces down, they just become damage soaks. That seems like quite a reasonable conclusion - in his current form, against Tier 1 squads, all he can really do is get in the way, and he can't do that as efficiently as a bunch of Mouse Droids.
if you take out all the pieces that do interesting stuff like the Thrawns, the tempo controls etc, and then recost, it's a different scenario though.
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He's not *just* a damage soak. He is likely to be able to hit something for 20 damage before dying. Whether or not he can be as efficient as a bunch of Mouse Droids is just a matter of what his cost is. At cost 3, he would be a lot more efficient than a Mouse Droid. :-)
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