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TheHutts wrote:Shado Vao's notable as one of three WOTC melee pieces with Greater Mobile Attack, while they handed out GMA like candy to powerful shooters. Yep. Crazy that the melee figures didn't get it more regularly.
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Klatooinian Black Sun Thug, from Shadows  Quote:6 points, Fringe
Hit Points: 10
Defense: 16
Attack: 3
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Black Sun (If a character whose name contains Xizor or Vigo is in the same squad, this character gains Grenades 10)
Satchel Charge (Replaces attacks: Designate 1 adjacent door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets) As a rule of thumb, WOTC Klatooinians are terrible and v-set Klatooinians are amazing. A cheap Fringe satchel charge piece has to be very good to rival the Ugnaught Demolitionist for playing time, and at 6 points the KBST costs twice as much as an Ugnaught. But the extra 3 points is well worth it in some situations - it has Stealth, so it's harder to pick off after it opens a crucial door. It can also shoot and combine fire, and with a Commander Effect it's a pretty solid scrub shooter; for example, it's worth using Klats over Ugnaughts in most Talon Kardde Fringe squads, since they're shooting at +7 for 20s. Additionally, KBSTs also have Black Sun, so they can pick up synergies like Grenades 30 and Grenade Launcher from the Togorian Black Sun Vigo, creating squads like this Jak build: Quote:--torgorian BS squad AKA Klats go BOOM PT 2--
24 Togorian Black Sun Vigo
20 Captain Tarpals
20 Dug Black Sun Vigo
11 ARF Trooper
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
16 R7 Astromech Droid x2
90 Klatooinian Black Sun Thug x15
10 Rodian Diplomat x2
(200pts. 24 activations) The KBST is a very strong Fringe piece - it brings so much to the table for 6 points that it can displace the Ugnaught Demoilitionist as Satchel Charge in some builds, and a swarm of KBSTs can also be used as the main fighting force in Grenade Launcher builds. 9/10.
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Ghes Orade, from Armed and Operational  Quote:26 points, Mandalorian
Hit Points: 60
Defense: 18
Attack: 10
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Mandalorian Protector (Counts as a character named Mandalorian Protector)
Bodyguard (If an adjacent ally would take damage from an attack, this character can take the damage instead)
Beskar'gam (When this character takes damage, it reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11)
Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking)
Protective +10 (+10 Damage while a wounded ally whose name contains Mirta Gev is within 6 squares)
Sniper (Other characters do not provide cover against this character's attack) I've never seen Ghes Orade in the table, but he seems like a competent enough piece for 26 points; he's a Unique version of the Mandalorian Protectors from Scum and Villainy. For an extra 9 points, you get Sniper and slightly enhanced stats. With the Mandalorian Protector special ability, Ghes has access to Bodyguard shots from Fenn Shysa and twin from Mandalore the Resurrector, while Sniper helps his bodyguard shots since he can only shoot the attacker if it's a legal target. Additionally, he also gets Protective +10 when an injured Mirta Gev is within 6, although the fact that Mirta comes with Twin and Ghes can get it from a couple of different commanders raises difficult questions in squad building. Ghes Orade is an efficient enough piece for 26 points; I'm unsure whether there's a competitive build for him, but he provides some interesting interactions in the Mandalorian faction, 6/10.
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I won the Epic 500 tournament at Gencon this year (2014) with Ghes in a squad...he actually played a crucial role in my game vs urbanjedi and his Epic Echani Handmaidens.
--Cain't Touch This!--
136 Boba Fett, Mandalore
58 Mandalore the Vindicated
56 Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi
32 Shae Vizla
28 Kelborn
27 Fenn Shysa
27 Mirta Gev
26 Ghes Orade
24 Mandalorian Tactician
38 Mandalorian Scout x2
14 Mandalorian Strike Force Leader
22 Death Watch Saboteur x2
8 R7 Astromech Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
(499pts. 16 activations)
With Twin from Boba and BG Shots from Fenn, plus his own native Mobile and Protective features, he was a very useful piece.
But yeah...at 500pts there are lots of Tier 2 pieces that can play a Tier 1 role. Shae Vizla (also a Tier 2 piece) was amazing for me in this tournament too.
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Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter, from Universe  Quote:75 points, Imperial
Hit Points: 140
Defense: 23
Attack: 16
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Dark Armor (Whenever this character takes damage, he reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11. Attacks with lightsabers ignore this special ability.)
Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings)
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Force Powers
Force 2
Force Grip 1 (Force 1, replaces attacks: sight; 10 damage)
Force Renewal 1 (This character gets 1 Force point each time he activates)
Force Whirlwind (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Deflect (Force 1: When hit by a nonmelee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Sweep (Force 1, replaces attacks: Can attack each adjacent enemy once) Vader Jedi Hunter used to be a huge part of the metagame; he was the spearhead of the original "Black and Blue squad" with Grand Admiral Thrawn, where Thrawn moved him around while Vader beat up other Jedi in builds like the one below: Quote:Black & Blue (150)
37 Grand Admiral Thrawn
75 Darth Vader Jedi Hunter
08 Mas Amedda
30 Stormtrooper x6 While top tech from the earlier sets has remained top tech in the present day, attack oriented pieces have tended to become superseded by later sets. Vader's a tough piece - he has good defenses with Dark Armor, Block, and Deflect - but he needs to stay still to makes all his attacks, and more mobile pieces like Cad Bane and Lord Vader have tended to be the attackers of choice in modern Black and Blue squads. Having said that, this Vader's still an intimidating threat against opposition Jedi, and he does have some crowd control with Force Whirlwind and Lightsaber Sweep as well, although he needs movement from a Thrawn to stop him getting shot to pieces by heavy shooter squads. The v-sets have also provided an alternative non-mobile, triple attack, intimidating Vader in the form of Vader Dark Lord of the Sith, so Vader Jedi Hunter is further pressed for playing time, while Pellaeon's ability to customise your squad doesn't really help this Vader as you're unlikely to drop one of the high cost Palpatines for him. Vader Jedi Hunter could still cause problems for Jedi heavy squads, but his day in the sun has past, and the Imperials have stronger options for their Black and Blue spearhead. 6/10. PS. Looks like I already covered this piece, and said almost the exact same stuff (and gave the same rating). Oops....
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Trandoshan Mercenary, from Alliance and Empire  Quote:9 points, Fringe
Hit Points: 20
Defense: 15
Attack: 4
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Double Claw Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving; both attacks must be against adjacent enemies)
Mercenary (This character can move only if he cannot make an attack from his starting space)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 10 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Rend +10 (If both of his attacks hit the same adjacent enemy, this character's second attack gets +10 Damage) The Trandoshan Mercenary's abilities like Regeneration, Rend +10, and Double Claw Attack suggest that he's a huge beefcake who's best used directly engaging the opposition. 20 hit points and puny stats, however, suggest the opposite. Mercenary's also a drawback; I think you could do some interesting things with Talon Karrde IB and Jabba Crime Lord to make the Trandoshan Mercenary into a top of the round hitter, but there are much more reliable pieces to build around. 2/10.
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Bossk, Bounty Hunter, from Bounty Hunters  Quote:25 points, Fringe
Hit Points: 60
Defense: 17
Attack: 8
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Double Claw Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving; both attacks must be against adjacent enemies)
Flamethrower 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target)
Momentum (If this character has moved this turn, he gets +4 Attack and +10 Damage against adjacent enemies)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 10 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Rend +10 (If both of his attacks hit the same adjacent enemy, this character's second attack gets +10 Damage) The randomiser has decided that it's Trandoshan Day. Bossk Bounty Hunter is the second of three WOTC Bossks - each one has a higher cost, better stats, and more abilities than its predecessor. Bossk Bounty Hunter is one of those jack of all trade pieces who can do a bunch of stuff, but nothing very efficiently - he's a handy piece to get in a draft or other format, but he doesn't do anything well enough to justify a place in a competitive squad. He's also fragile with 60 hit points and no mobile. His flamethrower 20 makes him a good fit for a Tarpals squad, but he pales in comparison to the 20 point Blizz, who has Shields 1, Mobile, and Missiles 30 for a long range threat. Bossk Bounty Hunter is a fun piece who can fit in a few different builds, but there's no niche for him in the competitive game, 5/10.
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Galactic Alliance Guard Sniper, from Galactic Heroes  Quote:8 points, New Republic
Hit Points: 20
Defense: 13
Attack: 7
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Rapport (Costs 1 less when in the same squad as a character named Ben Skywalker)
Sniper (Other characters do not provide cover against this character's attack)
Stealth (If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets) There's an interesting argument on this character's page - http://www.bloomilk.com/Character/1293/galactic-alliance-guard-sniper - culminating in: greentime wrote:This piece being better than some old jabronie figure does nothing to change the fact that this piece is a jabronie too. The Galactic Alliance Guard Sniper is certainly a weird example to call out for power creep - it's merely a serviceable fodder shooter in a faction that doesn't have very good support for non uniques. In Sith it can pick up +3 attack and +3 defense from Caedus Sith Lord, but in the New Republic there are only marginal benefits like Deceptive and Advantageous; all well and good, but there's nothing to help the +7 attack and the 20 hit points. I don't think there's enough help for Galactic Alliance Guard Sniper to build around them, so they'll mainly be used as support shooters in Caedus or Galactic Alliance builds, and even then it's a tough call to take one ahead of an extra R7 or three Mouse Droids. The Galactic Alliance Guard Sniper is a competent enough support shooter, but I doubt it gets on the table very often, 6/10.
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I always want to put it into builds until I remember it isn't a trooper or a scout and misses out on just enough CEs that I'd rather just stretch by points for a bigger GAG piece.
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Hey now, The GAGS might see some play in a squad soon, ... ... ...
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Alderaan Trooper, from Revenge of the Sith  Quote:6 points, Republic
Hit Points: 10
Defense: 13
Attack: 5
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Synchronized Fire (Alderaan Troopers who combine fire with this character grant +6 Attack instead of +4) I already gave their commander, Bail Organa, a 1, and his troopers don't deserve any better. Their +5 attack is passable, and before the v-sets they were the cheapest piece able to take advantage of Plo Koon Jedi Master's deathshots. But with 5 point Spaartis, who can get up to a +5 attack when Rookie is in play, and very strong 7 point Naboo Troopers, there are stronger Trooper options in the Republic now. The synchronised fire mechanisms with Bail aren't very helpful either; especially as you can't combine fire on a deathshot. There's no foreseeable reason to take the Alderaan Trooper over the Spaarti or Naboo Trooper, 1/10.
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Sthlrd2 wrote:Hey now, The GAGS might see some play in a squad soon, ... ... ... A clue!!! Oh boy!!!! 
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I was wondering when someone would notice.
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Jedi Sentinel, from Champions of the Force  Quote:17 points, Old Republic
Hit Points: 70
Defense: 18
Attack: 8
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Lightsaber (+10 Damage against adjacent enemies)
Repair 10 (Replaces attacks: touch; remove 10 damage from 1 Droid character)
Satchel Charge (Replaces attacks: Designate 1 adjacent door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Force Powers
Force 2 To be honest, I probably would have written the Jedi Sentinel off as early-set jank if it hadn't been part of a Regional winning squad last year. But that would have been a disservice - it's actually pretty solid for 17 points. Robust door control is always a good thing, and with 70 hit points and stealth, the Sentinel is tough for its cost - enough to deter strategies that involve killing the opponent's door control and grabbing a 2 point win. And while it's not a big damage dealer for its cost, it can shoot, and with Bastila it has 30 damage against adjacent enemies, while the force points for rerolls help compensate for its low attack. Logan won the 2014 Wisconsin Regional with the following squad: Quote:Atton Jaq Rand, Bastilla Jedi Master, Carth OR soldier, klat capt, 2 Jedi sentinels, OR Senator, 2 chandra fan pilots, an R7, and 2 mice The Jedi Sentinel isn't a power house, but it's a useful attacker/tech hybrid for the Old Republic - it's an interesting option for superstealth squads with the new Arfan Ramos as well. 7/10.
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I don't know if I've ever looked at Jedi Sentinels before just dismissing them as "probably overcosted OR piece" but 70 HP and 18 def on a 17 point stealth door control piece that can shoot and move faster? That is pretty good!
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Plo Koon, Jedi Master, from Masters of the Force  Quote:40 points, Republic
Hit Points: 130
Defense: 20
Attack: 14
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Pilot
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving)
Opportunist (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has activated this round)
Force Powers
Force 4
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack)
Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Precision (Force 1: This character gets +10 Damage on his next attack)
Commander Effect
Each trooper follower within 6 squares can make 1 immediate attack when defeated. Masters of the Force was an underwhelming set overall, but Plo Koon Jedi Master was one of the stronger pieces from it. He's good enough that he's seen competitive play in two completely disparate squad types. Firstly, he's one of the stronger melee beat sticks the Republic have, especially prior to the v-sets; with Opportunist and Precision he can put out 70 damage standing still, or 40 on the move. He was an attractive option as an alternative to General Skywalker in Yobuck squads - while Skybuck struggled against Kyle Katarn JBM's beefy disruptive squads, Yobuck squads with Plo Koon could deal with disruptive a lot better. Weeks won the 2010 Atlanta Regional and finished 12th at Gencon 2010 with PloBuck: Quote:--PloBuck--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
40 Plo Koon, Jedi Master
33 Captain Rex
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
3 Rodian Brute
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 10 activations) The v-sets have provided an alternative for Plo as a Jedi with Opportunist - Ki-Adi-Mundi, Jedi Master is less beefy and lacks Precision, but at 6 points cheaper, he allows you to pack an extra attacker. If the v-sets have diluted Plo Koon's stock as an attacker, they've also upped it as a commander, providing far better Troopers to utilise his Commander Effect. While Mon Mothma is the preferred death shot provider, it's also possible to use them in tandem. With the new Padawan Commander countering Disruptive and ABM, Plo Koon might also see some play as he's robust enough to bring into the front lines for Naboo Trooper squads. The following Weeks build is one example of a Naboo Trooper double-death shot squad: Quote:--Plo's Army--
40 Plo Koon, Jedi Master
23 Mon Mothma
21 Admiral Yularen
20 Captain Panaka of Theed
16 Queen Amidala
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
55 Naboo Trooper x11
8 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 20 activations) Plo Koon, Jedi Master is a really good piece; strong enough to see play both as a pure attacker and as a commander. 8/10.
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AndyHatton wrote:I don't know if I've ever looked at Jedi Sentinels before just dismissing them as "probably overcosted OR piece" but 70 HP and 18 def on a 17 point stealth door control piece that can shoot and move faster? That is pretty good! If they had another built in damage boost - like Assassin or Cunning or whatever - they'd be a Tier 1 piece. Definitely a good call running them in a competitive Old Republic squad.
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TheHutts wrote:Plo Koon, Jedi Master, from Masters of the Force Quote:40 points, Republic
Hit Points: 130
Defense: 20
Attack: 14
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Pilot
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving)
Opportunist (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has activated this round)
Force Powers
Force 4
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack)
Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Precision (Force 1: This character gets +10 Damage on his next attack)
Commander Effect
Each trooper follower within 6 squares can make 1 immediate attack when defeated. Masters of the Force was an underwhelming set overall, but Plo Koon Jedi Master was one of the stronger pieces from it. He's good enough that he's seen competitive play in two completely disparate squad types. Firstly, he's one of the stronger melee beat sticks the Republic have, especially prior to the v-sets; with Opportunist and Precision he can put out 70 damage standing still, or 40 on the move. He was an attractive option as an alternative to General Skywalker in Yobuck squads - while Skybuck struggled against Kyle Katarn JBM's beefy disruptive squads, Yobuck squads with Plo Koon could deal with disruptive a lot better. Weeks won the 2010 Atlanta Regional and finished 12th at Gencon 2010 with PloBuck: Quote:--PloBuck--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
40 Plo Koon, Jedi Master
33 Captain Rex
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
3 Rodian Brute
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 10 activations) The v-sets have provided an alternative for Plo as a Jedi with Opportunist - Ki-Adi-Mundi, Jedi Master is less beefy and lacks Precision, but at 6 points cheaper, he allows you to pack an extra attacker. If the v-sets have diluted Plo Koon's stock as an attacker, they've also upped it as a commander, providing far better Troopers to utilise his Commander Effect. While Mon Mothma is the preferred death shot provider, it's also possible to use them in tandem. With the new Padawan Commander countering Disruptive and ABM, Plo Koon might also see some play as he's robust enough to bring into the front lines for Naboo Trooper squads. The following Weeks build is one example of a Naboo Trooper double-death shot squad: Quote:--Plo's Army--
40 Plo Koon, Jedi Master
23 Mon Mothma
21 Admiral Yularen
20 Captain Panaka of Theed
16 Queen Amidala
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
55 Naboo Trooper x11
8 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist x2
(200pts. 20 activations) Plo Koon, Jedi Master is a really good piece; strong enough to see play both as a pure attacker and as a commander. 8/10. I do like me some Plo Koon.
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TheHutts wrote:AndyHatton wrote:I don't know if I've ever looked at Jedi Sentinels before just dismissing them as "probably overcosted OR piece" but 70 HP and 18 def on a 17 point stealth door control piece that can shoot and move faster? That is pretty good! If they had another built in damage boost - like Assassin or Cunning or whatever - they'd be a Tier 1 piece. Definitely a good call running them in a competitive Old Republic squad. I'm a fan of running them with a Czerka Scientist so they can get Twin, giving them 40 Damage potential as shooters, or 60 against adjacents. And Arfan Ramos now gives them Super Stealth, which helps.
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This thread has made for intereting reading over the holiday break. It also reminded me of why of the half dozen or so others I know who own SWM, nobody wants to play. 99% of the reviews end with some combination of
... klatoonian assassin blah blah ...
.... but jedi weaponmaster ....
...with mas...
...with lobot....
.... dash ....
..ig86 ....
.... give him evadecand mobile for the cost of food stamps with dumbdonna ...
... but cad bane does ...
Sad that 15 figures obsolete 700 ... The discourse makes for an interesting read but the conclusion is disappointing. How about for each piece instead of peppering it with a 1 or 2 you debate what it should actually cost in a world with 30 point figures with 8+ abilities? Or more specifically what would the figure need to cost to be a sane option in a competitive squad. I say this since banning obvious mistakes like Mas, Yobuck, and lobot seems off the table.
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